wolle Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 I just updated to today's update 1 for DCS 2.1 and took the Bf-109 for a spin. Whereas I needed to always trim her fully nose-heavy to achieve level cruise flight, now I can leave the trim more or less neutral. Has this changed? [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Intel Core I7 4820K @4.3 GHz, Asus P9X79 motherboard, 16 GB RAM @ 933 MHz, NVidia GTX 1070 with 8 GB VRAM, Windows 10 Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer1-1 Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 I just was going to ask this, but since I already flew I can say yeah they changed it. The slider doesnt seem to function, but there are trim controls in the flight control menu now that lets you trim elevators up and down, and rudders left and right. Edit - I misread your post the first time, but I thnk its still relevant. Intel 13900k @ 5.8ghz | 64gb GSkill Trident Z | MSI z790 Meg ACE| Zotac RTX4090 | Asus 1000w psu | Slaw RX Viper 2 pedals | VKB Gunfighter Mk3 MCE Ultimate + STECS/ Virpil MongoosT50+ MongoosT50CM | K-51 Collective + custom AH64D TEDAC | HP Reverb G2 | Windows 11 Pro | |Samsung Odyssey G9 | Next Level Racing Flight Seat Pro The Boeing MQ-25A Sting Ray = Dirt Devil with wings My wallpaper and skins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegon Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Got it totally different. Even when i trim nose full down, it climbs. Intel Core i76700K, 32GB DDR4, 512GB PCIe SSD + 2TB HDD, GeForce GTX 1080 8GB, Pimax 5k+ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razo+r Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 I did not experience any change, I always had to trim it fully down and it still went slightly up at 500 kph or so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted June 13, 2017 ED Team Share Posted June 13, 2017 I haven't seen any change. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
javelina1 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 Me neither. No change noticed here. MSI MAG Z790 Carbon, i9-13900k, NH-D15 cooler, 64 GB CL40 6000mhz RAM, MSI RTX4090, Yamaha 5.1 A/V Receiver, 4x 2TB Samsung 980 Pro NVMe, 1x 2TB Samsung 870 EVO SSD, Win 11 Pro, TM Warthog, Virpil WarBRD, MFG Crosswinds, 43" Samsung 4K TV, 21.5 Acer VT touchscreen, TrackIR, Varjo Aero, Wheel Stand Pro Super Warthog, Phanteks Enthoo Pro2 Full Tower Case, Seasonic GX-1200 ATX3 PSU, PointCTRL, Buttkicker 2, K-51 Helicopter Collective Control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildBillKelsoe Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 she always climbs with 2 degrees of nose down trim for me. running 156 AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeCuvier Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 I do not see this in 2.1. When the trim wheel is in the neutral positon (0) the the nose goes down. I have to trim slightly tail-heavy to get level flight without stick input. I control the trim wheel with an axis (slider of the TM WH throttle). The only criticism I have is that the upper 30% of the axis control have no effect. That's a poor implementation of the axis control for the trim wheel and it's the same if I bind the left throttle lever to the trim wheel. LeCuvier Windows 10 Pro 64Bit | i7-4790 CPU |16 GB RAM|SSD System Disk|SSD Gaming Disk| MSI GTX-1080 Gaming 8 GB| Acer XB270HU | TM Warthog HOTAS | VKB Gladiator Pro | MongoosT-50 | MFG Crosswind Pedals | TrackIR 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art-J Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 ^ That's an interesting observation, because for me, just like a couple of guys above, even full nose down trim cannot make the plane fly level at cruise settings (1.05-1.1 ATA) - pushing the stick is alway necessary. Both in 1.5.6 and 2.1. I control the trim via keyboard, though. Does assigning it to slider/rotary change the physics of the plane? In theory it shouldn't, but maybe we've discovered some glitch? i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted June 20, 2017 ED Team Share Posted June 20, 2017 ^ That's an interesting observation, because for me, just like a couple of guys above, even full nose down trim cannot make the plane fly level at cruise settings (1.05-1.1 ATA) - pushing the stick is alway necessary. Both in 1.5.6 and 2.1. I control the trim via keyboard, though. Does assigning it to slider/rotary change the physics of the plane? In theory it shouldn't, but maybe we've discovered some glitch? I dont think it makes a difference where you assign it, but I wonder if its more of inconstancies in controllers, because I have always been able to get a level cruise trim, in fact I have to pull it back some to get level. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDEYE_CVW-66 Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Same effect here. Nose up when trimmed fully down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted June 21, 2017 ED Team Share Posted June 21, 2017 Tried in both NTTR and Normandy, didnt see any change with how trim acts. See below. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echo38 Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 (edited) I dont think it makes a difference where you assign it, but I wonder if its more of inconstancies in controllers, because I have always been able to get a level cruise trim, in fact I have to pull it back some to get level. Unless the controller has a hardware error (e.g. controller outputs 10% back-stick when it's actually centered and thus should be at 0%), then it shouldn't matter what sort of controller it is; 0% deflection should be 0% output on all controllers. So, if User A experiences pitch-up, hands-off, under the same in-sim conditions (trim, speed, power, mass, etc.) where User B experiences pitch-down, then either one of them has a very faulty controller, or else there must be a bug in the sim, causing a discrepancy between the two experiences. Can anyone experiencing behavior contrary to that shown in Sithspawn's video post a mirroring video displaying the difference? Addendum: it just occurred to me that CH Products joysticks have hardware trim—which, by the way, you should normally never use, as trying to use it as a substitute for the virtual trimwheel will quickly wear out the plastic & loosen the potentiometers in their mountings, causing unnecessary extra sloppiness. The hardware trim is meant for rare maintenance corrections of minor hardware deviations caused by aging. If any of you are using these sticks and misusing the hardware trim, then it can also erroneously affect your results in-sim (effectively producing a "double simulation," except that the secondary "layer" doesn't account for virtual stick-force et al.). Edited June 21, 2017 by Echo38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art-J Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Unless the controller has a hardware error (e.g. controller outputs 10% back-stick when it's actually centered and thus should be at 0%), then it shouldn't matter what sort of controller it is; 0% deflection should be 0% output on all controllers. Absolutely! Can anyone experiencing behavior contrary to that shown in Sithspawn's video post a mirroring video displaying the difference? I cannot... but that's because Sith's vid above is contrary to what he wrote himself two posts up :D and actually confirms what I wrote on the previous page - one cannot trim the 109 for level flight at cruise settings with full nose down trim - always a bit of push is required. Maybe I just notice it more, because I use 30 cm extension for my THW. Not that I'm bothered by that like a certain memorable, 109-obsessed, long-time-banned user of this forum ;). Not at all, actually. To balance the plane with neutral pitch stick, one has to cut the throttle to slow down to ~390-400 indicated. Yes, I've just tested it on both free flight missions as well. Haven't checked, however, how the plane behaves with empty MW50 tank and reduced fuel load (CG moves forward). Anyone more interested in the bird - feel free to test it and post results. i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted June 21, 2017 ED Team Share Posted June 21, 2017 I cannot... but that's because Sith's vid above is contrary to what he wrote himself two posts up :D and actually confirms what I wrote on the previous page - one cannot trim the 109 for level flight at cruise settings with full nose down trim - always a bit of push is required. I wasn't trying to trim for level flight, the video shows that if you trim full nose down, the aircraft will nose down, people are saying with full nose down, the nose still raises. I was also trying a new axis for my trim wheel which I don't like as I can't do fine adjustments, but thats another story :) If you like I can do another one and trim for level flight, but it should be obvious as I can set the trim to nose up or nose down, you just have to hit the in between to get there. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art-J Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Sure, I believe you, but I was rather talking about typical cruise settings (1.05 ATA for econo, 1.25 for cruise) which yield airspeeds of above 450 indicated, and this is in the speed range where some stick push will always be necessary to keep the nose from rising even with trim full down. At least with these free flight mission loadouts. I suppose that's what aforementioned people meant as well. i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted June 21, 2017 ED Team Share Posted June 21, 2017 Sure, I believe you, but I was rather talking about typical cruise settings (1.05 ATA for econo, 1.25 for cruise) which yield airspeeds of above 450 indicated, and this is in the speed range where some stick push will always be necessary to keep the nose from rising even with trim full down. At least with these free flight mission loadouts. I suppose that's what aforementioned people meant as well. I still see nose down in this case, higher speeds lessen the nose down effect, but its still there with full nose down trim. Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art-J Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Ha! That's 'cause You were still pushing a tiny bit, as clearly seen by the "diamond" marker vs the horizontal line :D. Next time center the marker on the line and see what happens above ~400 IAS. i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted June 21, 2017 ED Team Share Posted June 21, 2017 A number of times I let go, and it nosed down, but I have to hold it from rolling on me too :) Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted June 21, 2017 ED Team Share Posted June 21, 2017 This is the steady state of fully nose-down trimmed airplane with full fuel load and MW-50. The required engine power setting is shown. By the way, take a look at the ball - the video above has this ball decentered, so the plane encounters additonal pitch moments due to sideslip. To have pure zero inputs from roll stick channel and pedals a good idea would be to switch them off and use only keyboard. Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team Yo-Yo Posted June 21, 2017 ED Team Share Posted June 21, 2017 20% of fuel and empty MW-50 bottle Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles. Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Tigre. Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 Thanks for the information, very useful to clarify the question.. :pilotfly: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rel4y Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) I just wanted to clear something up. Sparflug is not the same as Reiseflug. Reiseflug translated freely means something like (combat) cruise and Sparflug means maximum range flight. For the K-4 1.15 ata/ 2400 rpm is Sparflug, not Reiseflug. Example from a G-14 Entwicklungsblatt: Sparflug 450 km TAS at 4 km Reiseflug 480 kph TAS at 0 km 525 kph TAS at 4 km 610 kph TAS at 7.1 km Edited June 22, 2017 by rel4y Cougar, CH and Saitek PnP hall sensor kits + shift registers: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916 Shapeways store for DIY flight simming equipment and repair: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/rel4y-diy-joystick-flight-simming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little_D Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 I just wanted to clear something up. Sparflug is not the same as Reiseflug. Reiseflug translated freely means something like (combat) cruise and Sparflug means maximum range flight. For the K-4 1.15 ata/ 2400 rpm is Sparflug, not Reiseflug. Hi relay, i think you are with the numbers not right, here the numbers from the K-4 manual and also the same numbers from the DCS K-4 pdf: Notleistung + Mw50 ( emergancy power ): ATA 1.75 +- 0.01 at 2800 rpm +- 50 rpm, for 10 minutes Steig/Kampfleistung ( Combat/Climb power ): ATA 1.35 +- 0.01 at 2600rpm +- 50rpm, for 30 minutes Reiseflug ( cruse power ): ATA 1.25 +- 0.01 at 2400 rpm +- 65rpm, no time limit Sparflug ( max range flight power ): ATA 1.05. +- 0.01 at 2000 rpm +- 80 rpm, no time limit. My question is, way in DCS the plane is trimmed for Sparflug (max rang flight ) and not as it was usualy in the German Luftwaffe to trimm the planes with the trimmslats on the ground for Reiseflug ( cruse power ) as with Reiseflug they reach there Reiseflug speed from around 450 Km/H. regards Little_D 1./JG2_Little_D Staffelkapitän 1./Jagdgeschwader 2 "Richthofen" "Go for the leader, if you can. The path is the goal, the kill the result." "The one who has 12, leads. The one who has six, follows." YouTube Channel: 1./JG2 Filmkanal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rel4y Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 (edited) RPM may be off, some documents list it at 2000 rpm others at 2400 rpm. Sparleistung though is definitely 1.15 ata for the DB605DB, it is taken from an engine card. Kurfursts page is down atm, but there you can usually find the corresponding Motoren-Karte for the 1.8 ata setting. These are more accurate than whatever is written in the K-4 manuals, be it LW original or DCS. In Yo-Yos picture he is flying at 1.15 ata which is Sparleistung => V(Ropt) and not Reiseflug V(Reise), thats what I wanted to clarify on. As you correctly said the aircraft were not trimmed for Sparleistung but Reiseflug = cruise. For the K-4 Prototype (1750 PS) Reiseflug V(Reise) velocity is: 477 kph TAS at 0 km 645 kph TAS at 8.4 km Edited June 23, 2017 by rel4y Cougar, CH and Saitek PnP hall sensor kits + shift registers: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220916 Shapeways store for DIY flight simming equipment and repair: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/rel4y-diy-joystick-flight-simming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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