Can an F-14 overturn an F-16 !?

In what world can that be ? The big bird is out maneuvering the Viper ... When launched, the Viper was extremely maneuverable but no more. Have ED downgraded it ?

Hello Max,

Interesting question (one of many in the ACM world).

But I'm sure you can find a lot of the already existing threads about this, here at the forum.

I don't have either module, but yes, if you get into a protracted dogfight where the speed gets really low, F-14 can very much out turn F-16 in that case IRL. Though, a half decent F-16 pilot shouldn't let that happen 9 out of 10 times.

That's what I don't like about these "can x out turn/out run/out climb y" questions. These things are usually a lot more nuanced than a simple yes/no question. At what speed, what altitude, how heavy the planes are at the moment? Often even some very old planes can have a specific niche envelope where they may out do a more modern one under said conditions. But for the 99 percent of time, that conditions will not occur, and the other plane will comfortably out do the old one under those 99 percent.

Does that mean than the new plane out turns the old one? Well overall yes, under certain situations no. Does it then, mean that the old plane can out do new one? Well under a specific condition yes, but overall not at all.

That's why these questions, especially without any context, makes me roll my eyes a bit.

I'm not sure what the source of this data is but it is correct in DCS if you try it. The Tomcat doesn't need to get to the speed the Viper needs to get to in order for it get a high turn rate.

This means the Tomcat will a turn smaller circle at almost the same rate.

See this post too: At lower altitudes and no weapon loads the Tomcat is a better performer

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4145616&postcount=163

Others have already answered this question.

But to provide some further context, not all Vipers are equal and capabilities come at the cost of performance. Our Viper is extremely capable because of all the advanced avionics and sensors. That also means it's extra heavy because of all those gadgets. And not all penalties from extra weight can be removed but bugger engines.

So yes, this iteration of the F-16 is not as capable in sustained turn rates as some other earlier versions, especially the very early almost exclusively day time oriented (and thus less capable but higher performing) blocks.

Our viper is not good at grovelling(flying slow and at very high AoA). That makes it lose to a well flown F-14 or Hornet in a 1v1 unless the pilot is smart enough to play to his own strength and not play the opponent's game.

 

I'm not sure what the source of this data is but it is correct in DCS if you try it. The Tomcat doesn't need to get to the speed the Viper needs to get to in order for it get a high turn rate.

 

That's not a high turn rate

Disclaimer, I have the F14 but don't claim to be able to fly the thing, I primarily fly F15 but prefer the F18 in BFM, just getting into the F16.

Radius is seldom the issue. I will say I'm not eager to get into a flat scissors with anybody in an F15, for the reasons you mention; but not sure I'd be eager to do that in an F14 either.

I think it's a little more interesting to look at high performance turns, say a slice at a given perfect speed. F16 is pretty impressive, right on the edge of the envelope at Mach 0.8 it can turn 19-20 degrees per sec (with a radius of 0.3nm fwiw). Tomcat can exceed that -- not difficult to hit up to 23 degrees per sec with a similar radius.

Key is to keep the thing in the air, which is a challenge. I had some success just babying it through the turns, not going that fast (entering at 400 kias, kept it out of gate), easing it just to the shake. Didn't feel that fast but lo and behold, when I looked at the tacviews it was darn impressive.

To be clear, you gotta keep it flying, an issue that doesn't come up with the F16. But, my feeling is, Tomcat is a pretty amazing jet, if you can fly the durn thing.

F-16C block 30 was the best for dogfight according to Viper pilots from F-16.net. It weights half ton less than block 50 and had very similar GE engine. It was the most produced F-16 variant also.

Block 30 was a dogfighter, block 40 night striker, block 50 SEAD striker.

Early -A variants block 5, 10 (before block 15) with "small tail" were great dogfighters also, and there was no other highly maneuverable opponents those time.

In dissimilar BFM Tomcats didn't stand a chance against F-16s but this were probably F-14A and lightweight unarmed F-16N with GE engines.

F-16C block 30 was the best for dogfight according to Viper pilots from F-16.net. It weights half ton less than block 50 and had very similar GE engine. It was the most produced F-16 variant also.

Block 30 was a dogfighter, block 40 night striker, block 50 SEAD striker.

 

Early -A variants block 5, 10 (before block 15) with "small tail" were great dogfighters also, and there was no other highly maneuverable opponents those time.

 

In dissimilar BFM Tomcats didn't stand a chance against F-16s but this were probably F-14A and lightweight unarmed F-16N with GE engines.

what about now? BLock 30 have had avionics upgrades in the 2000s and today are very comparable with its systems to CCIP Block 40/50's. ID imagine with the weight gain made that would otherwise make the block 50 the best performing F16 from the 3 due to better engines.

A lot of this boils down to how realistically (or unrealistically) people in MP servers fly.

Most of the F-14s flown on dogfight servers for example are over-g, but who cares, it's only one round. A lot of people exploit the fact you can pull crazy alpha in the F-14 for a split second and shoot, again, pulling up to 10g in the process. Others fly flaps down and overspeed the flaps etc.

So IMO, yes, the F-14 can out-turn an F-16 (without over-g), but IRL no pilot would fly as recklessly as we do here, so flying at the edge of the envelope in an F-14 is a lot more difficult and risky that in a FBW F-16 where you just pull without the risk of breaking anything.

Imagine that a split second can make a difference in a dogfight, if the F-16 pilot only has to pull back on the stick to "instantly" achieve a perfect turn, the F-14 pilot has to build up g more gradually, he cannot just slam it back.

what about now?

Now there are blocks 60 and 70 with new more powerful 145kN GE-132 engines, AESA radars, ALQ-165 ECM, fiber optic data bus etc.

According to press reports quoted by Flight International, this is "the first time the US has sold a better aircraft overseas than its own forces fly".

But DCS is not about now, it's about history, more or less recent. From obvious reasons.

Now there are blocks 60 and 70 with new more powerful 145kN GE-132 engines, AESA radars, ALQ-165 ECM, fiber optic data bus etc.

 

According to press reports quoted by Flight International, this is "the first time the US has sold a better aircraft overseas than its own forces fly".

 

But DCS is not about now, it's about history, more or less recent. From obvious reasons.

I know but i was only referring to versions that the US operates and thier manuverability not about avionics advances.

You miss the point. My question was about considering that the reason why Block 30 may have well had superior turn rate relative to block 40 and 50 at some point was lesser weight with nearly as powerful engine back in the day. If you consider weaker engine and avionics enhancements ( and related weight gain) made to block 30 since 80s, is itreally still a better dogfighter than the block 40 let alone the block 50 post CCIP within 21st century? I have doubts it would be.

I'm just saying 1980s block 30 had better sustained turn rate and smaller turn radius than CCIP block 50.

Now blocks 30 could grew up and many being retired and Tomcats are phased out long time ago.

Comparing block 30 and 50 FCS is a factor also. Since block 40 new digital FCS decreased safety margins comparing to previous one, but it can't be exceed at will when needed like previous one.

 

I'm not sure what the source of this data is but it is correct in DCS if you try it. The Tomcat doesn't need to get to the speed the Viper needs to get to in order for it get a high turn rate.

 

This means the Tomcat will a turn smaller circle at almost the same rate.

 

See this post too: At lower altitudes and no weapon loads the Tomcat is a better performer

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4145616&postcount=163

I friggin hate sounding like the old salt all the time but this pic illustration is crap. The data is wrong at least in part (I did not check, but doesn't look correct). But the entire premise conveys information that is at best misleading, and more likely harmful to inexperienced pilots. To the dude who posted it, you generally seemed like you didn't know - so this isn't directed at you.

The 15 & 16 are doing about 200 kts more than the f-14. Yet the chart is titled "radius at max sustained rate." those are not best rates. Best rate for a viper at 10k is about 20 deg/sec, provided the pilot is at a more reasonable BFM speed of 450-500 kts. At that speed and load its radius drops to ~2300 ft radius as well. If its a radius fight the viper could conceivably bleed another couple hundred kts and drop that radius down to under 1800 ft.

Otherwise 14 deg/s and 4k ft at 650 kts is pretty accurate.

All of this "Will F-XX out turn F-xx" posts to be honest are pretty meaningless. I suspect few posters of those questions have the stick skills to hit those numbers, particularly in more difficult to fly planes like the f-14b. In my old salty opinion, most virtual pilots would do well do spend more time learning about turn circles and bubbles, pursuit types, WEZ, in/out of plane, 3/9 lines, visual cues on their canopy, and where the fuk they should be putting their lift vector, all while sustaining airspeed and flying with precision. Without time in type practicing and perfecting your BFM skills it doesn't matter what your flying, you're gonna lose.

This pic, IIRC, is from the F-16.net forums from an old thread about EPE motor Hornets vs. F-16C HAF jets.

There was a guy arguing that an F-14 out turns everything. I think there was an argument but I was skipping over those.

In my old salty opinion, most virtual pilots would do well do spend more time learning about turn circles and bubbles, pursuit types, WEZ, in/out of plane, 3/9 lines, visual cues on their canopy, and where the fuk they should be putting their lift vector, all while sustaining airspeed and flying with precision. Without time in type practicing and perfecting your BFM skills it doesn't matter what your flying, you're gonna lose.

This sounds like good advice. Any suggestions on a good source material to learn about these terms and further how to become proficient in their application?

F-14 could not outturn F-16C-50.

Loaded with 6 amraams + pylongs (drag index = 50) and 26000 lbs total flying weight, F-16C-50 sustains at 14.2 deg/sec at 10000 ft.

Loaded with 4 aim7 + 4aim9 ( drag index = 48 ) and 55600 lbs total flying weight, F-14D sustains at 14 deg/sec at 10000 ft.

F-16 has the edge because it is easy to verify that the fuel load for F-16 allows for longer afterburner duration.

This sounds like good advice. Any suggestions on a good source material to learn about these terms and further how to become proficient in their application?

You might want to check out this Youtube channel, as a starting point:

F-14 could not outturn F-16C-50.

 

Loaded with 6 amraams + pylongs (drag index = 50) and 26000 lbs total flying weight, F-16C-50 sustains at 14.2 deg/sec at 10000 ft.

 

Loaded with 4 aim7 + 4aim9 ( drag index = 48 ) and 55600 lbs total flying weight, F-14D sustains at 14 deg/sec at 10000 ft.

 

F-16 has the edge because it is easy to verify that the fuel load for F-16 allows for longer afterburner duration.

So the F-16 wins by 0.2 degrees per second? Sounds like the better pilot wins to me...

So the F-16 wins by 0.2 degrees per second? Sounds like the better pilot wins to me...

At the optimal speed the f16 turns a lot better than that. Sk000tch is spot on. And yes, the piloting skills are key.

At the optimal speed the f16 turns a lot better than that. Sk000tch is spot on. And yes, the piloting skills are key.

Such is the case in all engagements (within reason - no HOBS, etc).

This sounds like good advice. Any suggestions on a good source material to learn about these terms and further how to become proficient in their application?

Syndrome I could swear I wrote out a response to you but I don't see it. Either I flaked or a mod kindly removed the post (as opposed to me) for posting materials I should not have. I will send you a PM later. Apologies for that.

 

The 15 & 16 are doing about 200 kts more than the f-14. Yet the chart is titled "radius at max sustained rate." those are not best rates. Best rate for a viper at 10k is about 20 deg/sec, provided the pilot is at a more reasonable BFM speed of 450-500 kts. At that speed and load its radius drops to ~2300 ft radius as well. If its a radius fight the viper could conceivably bleed another couple hundred kts and drop that radius down to under 1800 ft.

Since the old F3 days we learnt that you should be around 450 when turning the Viper for maximum turn rate. So 650 is way to fast. As reference the old JAS Gripen C turns 20+ degrees per second at around 450, and even though it turns a bit better than the F16 they are rather evenly matched according to pilots I have spoken to that have been doing exercises against F-16s...

Since the old F3 days we learnt that you should be around 450 when turning the Viper for maximum turn rate. So 650 is way to fast. As reference the old JAS Gripen C turns 20+ degrees per second at around 450, and even though it turns a bit better than the F16 they are rather evenly matched according to pilots I have spoken to that have been doing exercises against F-16s...

I'm not sure what you're talking about or disagreeing with.

First I don't know what f3 is, i assume some previous sim. I am new to desktop sims, DCS is my first. I do have a couple thousand hours flying pointy things with wings.

450 is a fair rule of thumb I suppose but best performance is dependent on a lot of variables that will change that number significantly. Altitude, weight, drag from stores are the biggest, but a very cold day will knock a few degrees off your rate and decrease your radius by 10% or so as well.

Rules of thumb are fine for people that don't want to memorize and/or learn the plane, but they are horrendously imprecise. Consider: Clean and light at sea level, best rate is 24 degrees at closer to 325 kts. Best Radius is a mere 1/4 mile at a near stall speed of 160kts. At 30k ft, with full(er) tanks and AA stores best rate drops to under 11 deg/sec at .9 mach, or roughly 530 kts. It will take you a mile to turn her around as well. At a more typical 10,000ft, with a reasonable config and fuel state, best rate is in the high teens at airspeed of 500-525kts.

So, 450 is fine as a starting point, but it is just that- A starting point. This is all mil btw, everything changes in AB.

Anyway, Im still not sure what issue you are taking with my post. My ipoint was that the chart was misleading. "Radius at max sustained rate" is an odd thing to chart in the first place. Why do I care about radius if I'm in a rate fight? It's not to scale, as if to exaggerate a meaningless difference. The data is wrong, the airspeeds unreasonable, etc., etc.

As far as f-14 vs f-16, my money is and always will be on the pilot. Above all, hope you are the better pilot (or that f-14 is using rule of thumb airspeeds). Generally speaking, f-16 has the advantage in almost everything, even ignoring aim-9x vs. M's, likely incorrect assumption that DCS pilots can hold max rate in a 14 (she is a bit more tricky to handle than the FBW birds). Despite what everyone around here seems to think the 14 ain't all that in the vertical. If she goes out of plane it will almost always be downhill as she bleeds airspeed fast. After the first turn seems most will try to pull a viper downhill. Viper would be well advised not to follow, or get slow with the big cat. Keep speed and turning room as much as possible, watch for wings to sweep forward, at that point you should be able to get inside bubble, stay lag until stable on canopy, pull for lead and shoot her fat ass -- it's a big ass and pretty hard to miss.

I'm not sure what you're talking about or disagreeing with.

 

Sorry to confuse you. Should have started with that I completely agree with your post :)

Sorry to confuse you. Should have started with that I completely agree with your post :)

Damn dude... you could have saved me 45 minutes and some numb legs from tapping out that essay on the can. Ain’t easy reading EMs on a phone!

I seem to be arguing in every thread so think I might be a bit irritable/bored. Injuries and illnesses have TFR’d me straight & level most of last few months