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Razbam's Mig 19 Teaser


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The MiG-25PD is no longer secret since it has been exported and is no longer in service in the Russian army for quite some time. It would be really great to have a version of MiG-25!

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The MiG-25PD is no longer secret since it has been exported and is no longer in service in the Russian army for quite some time. It would be really great to have a version of MiG-25!

 

 

This

 

In case the people don’t know it. After the Mig-21, IRL the Mig-25 is the second Mig killer in last wars.

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The MiG-25PD is no longer secret since it has been exported and is no longer in service in the Russian army for quite some time. It would be really great to have a version of MiG-25!

 

I don’t know how it works in Russia, but in France secret documentation doesn’t stop to be secret because a hardware is withdrawn from service :music_whistling:

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I don’t know how it works in Russia, but in France secret documentation doesn’t stop to be secret because a hardware is withdrawn from service

 

Same for Russia. Even if hardware is withdrawn or exported, it is still secret. And after the secrecy period is expired, documentation is oftenly being destroyed. And even if it is not destroyed - there are still many troubles in getting access to it.

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Documentation is rather no problem: few months ago somebody sold on ebay for 700 euro whole technical description of MiG-25PD. Problem is different: we have small maps, no place for long range intercept flights with high supersonic speeds, MiG-25 was only small piece of big interception system "Vozdukh", "Vozdukh-1", "BAN-1" ( last one probably still in use ). Without those complicated command systems aircraft is just toy. Here can be serious problem with secrecy, documents etc. Even if, ED is able find somewhere those papers still exist problem with systems complexivity and apropriate implementation in game.

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Documentation is rather no problem: few months ago somebody sold on ebay for 700 euro whole technical description of MiG-25PD. Problem is different: we have small maps, no place for long range intercept flights with high supersonic speeds, MiG-25 was only small piece of big interception system "Vozdukh", "Vozdukh-1", "BAN-1" ( last one probably still in use ). Without those complicated command systems aircraft is just toy. Here can be serious problem with secrecy, documents etc. Even if, ED is able find somewhere those papers still exist problem with systems complexivity and apropriate implementation in game.

 

 

In Russian service yeah, but for example Iraq used it in the air superiority role so it wouldn't really be limited to a high altitude point defense interceptor.

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Without those complicated command systems aircraft is just toy

 

I kept my child soul and I like to play with toys :lol:

But we are spoiling the thread :music_whistling: (MiG-19)

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Module MiG-25 clickable

 

The MiG-25 has nothing secret for a long time, after I bead at the general level !

If an army wants to have it in classified sercert defense, it can.

Me if I want I can classified secret defense chocolate boxes too ;-p

 

 

Take a look at the documentary and the story of the MiG-25, to see that this plane is out of service because it is obsolete, and its mission was taken over by the MiG-31 in Russia. We are in 2018, not in 1980

 

 

I think that the realization of the module MiG-25 clickable would be a very good choice for everyone ..

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Modern or obsolete have nothing to do with documentation access. Sometimes even stuff from 60/70 is still confidential/secret. MiG-25 was built as part of big and complicated system, and module without this is like half product. Of course DCS MiG-25 is a big dream but realistically very unlikely.

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Question: Since I’m not that knowledgeable about the Mig-19. I’m just curious about the maneuverability of the aircraft compared to aircraft we have around that era (F5, Mig21, etc) Does it have the thrust advantage to the F-5 like the 21? The 19 is looking fantastic! Definitely a buy!

 

 

Edit: fixed auto correct

I was inverted B)

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Question: Since I’m not that knowledgeable about the Mig-19. I’m just curious about the maneuverability of the aircraft compared to aircraft we have around that era (F5, Mig21, etc) Does it have the thrust advantage to the F-5 like the 21? The 19 is looking fantastic! Definitely a buy!

 

 

Edit: fixed auto correct

The MiG-19 is much better than the MiG-21 and the F-5 in turn fights.

The MiG-19 can handle itself at low speeds better than the MiG-21 and the F-5.

The MiG-19's max. speed is somewheres around 1450 kph. The F-5's ca. 1700 kph. The MiG-21's ca. 2200 kph.

The MiG-19 is lighter than the F-5 by 2-3 tons and each of its engines has a higher thrust ratio (with afterburner) by 8-10 kN.

So I would say, the F-5 is gonna have nightmares.

 

This is based on the information we have in the manuals, wikipedia, some websites in different laguages I always refer to and some pdf documentation I had collected in the past and still do.

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The MiG-19 is much better than the MiG-21 and the F-5 in turn fights.

The MiG-19 can handle itself at low speeds better than the MiG-21 and the F-5.

The MiG-19 is lighter than the F-5 by 2-3 tons and each of its engines has a higher thrust ratio (with afterburner) by 8-10 kN.

So I would say, the F-5 is gonna have nightmares.

 

Wrong. F-5E empty weight is nearly 1.5 tonnes less. It has bigger MTOW only because it can handle more air-to-ground payload. In AA loadout it is lighter then 19P.

Also F-5E is much more maneuverable then 19/21/23 due to its advanced wing mechanisation and stability control systems. MiG-19 has a high swept wing, wich has lower lift at low speeds.

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F-5E empty weight is nearly 1.5 tonnes less

Since you've done the research, you should've noticed that I was talking about the max. weight and not the empty weight. In a combat empty weights mean nothing.

The wings are not the only decisive factor in a turn fight, although very important. The MiG-19 has a higher thrust ratio as I've mentioned above while weighing less. Do the math.

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So if im in the F5 im just gonna turn and burn lol

 

in a serious note it doesn't surprise me that the mig 19 can turn better, so it looks like if im in a f5 I m gonna have to get my shots off as fast as I can and get the kill before the merge. Or try to sneak up on him, who knows when the 19 releases I'll probably be flying that.

I was inverted B)

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So if im in the F5 im just gonna turn and burn lol

 

in a serious note it doesn't surprise me that the mig 19 can turn better, so it looks like if im in a f5 I m gonna have to get my shots off as fast as I can and get the kill before the merge. Or try to sneak up on him, who knows when the 19 releases I'll probably be flying that.

The pilot is an important factor that you must also take into consideration. Had tons of dogfights in the MiG-21 against F-5's, Viggens and even Harriers and scored many kills. In time you beginn to know if the pilot you're fighting is good and knows what he's doing or not. That's when you have to decide quickly on whether to bug out or give it a shot. The latter hits me sometimes due to stubborness or worse... ego.

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Since you've done the research, you should've noticed that I was talking about the max. weight and not the empty weight. In a combat empty weights mean nothing.

The wings are not the only decisive factor in a turn fight, although very important. The MiG-19 has a higher thrust ratio as I've mentioned above while weighing less. Do the math.

 

 

Max weight isn't relevant either. You have to do the math for AA weight.

F-5E wouldn't dogfight loaded up with Mk-82 :music_whistling:

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Max weight isn't relevant either. You have to do the math for AA weight.

F-5E wouldn't dogfight loaded up with Mk-82 :music_whistling:

Sure as hell not. But certainly more likely than the empty weight. And empty means also no fuel at all. That's like 0.7 tons of fuel the F-5 has over the MiG-19.

2 IR missiles for each, so not really much of a difference in weight there.

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Since you've done the research, you should've noticed that I was talking about the max. weight and not the empty weight. In a combat empty weights mean nothing.

The wings are not the only decisive factor in a turn fight, although very important. The MiG-19 has a higher thrust ratio as I've mentioned above while weighing less. Do the math.

 

Weighing less you say? Okay, let's do the math.

 

F-5E empty weight - 4349kg.

MiG-19P empty weight - 5673kg.

Fuel mass for 5E/19P - 2050/1800kg.

Fueled weight - 6399/7473. MiG-19P is still one tonne more. Not talking about weight of missiles and ammo, wich is +- the same.

 

Let's stand that they will enter the dogfight fully fueled. And - oops - MiG-19 looses its engines only after 8 minutes of full burner due to fuel consumption - its RD-9BF engines consume 12375kg of fuel per hour, compared to only 9567 of Tiger. Its fuel allows it to dogfight for nearly 13 minutes. So, to ensure equiality, we must lower the fuel ammount F-5 should use. For 8 minutes of burner it needs only 1261kg of fuel. So, its fueled weight should be 5610kg. Nearly 2 tonnes less then MiG-19P.

 

With this weight it has T/W ratio of 0.808. Fueled MiG-19P has T/W ratio of 1.007. Well, it is still has more T/W then Tiger, but, as experiments with MiG-21/23 have shown, T/W did not play much role in dogfighting with Tiger. MiG-23MLs used in it had T/W nearly 1.1 and still lost. And all because of wing mechanisation. Moreover, MiG-19P was never meant to do dogfighting, it is an interceptor. So it is needless to wait some king of maneuverability from it.

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It is an interceptor. Didn't say anything else. Your numbers are a bit different than mine. Never mind that.

On a side note, if it takes you 8 minutes in the MiG-19 against the F-5, then you simply don't deserve the kill. Besides, you could always regulate your engines. No one said you can't throttle back to military power for a couple of seconds. Do that permanently. While doing it, go easy on the stick.

The way I see it, the MiG-19 will have the higher chance of dominating a dogfight.

Time will tell...

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In addition to what has been presented about the "real" stats of F5, id also like to point out that beyond any performance characterstics, The F5 has a clear cut advantage in avionics over the Mig19P.

 

 

F5E has a Longer ranged Search radar with off boresight lock capability

 

better gunsight solution, A modernish Radar warning reciever that has alpha numeric Symbology, Counter measure dispensers, and more modern Missiles.

 

 

1st generation Heatseakers like the R3S will basically love to eat Flares that the F5 will be able to dump. Whilst the F5 will have access up to the Aim9P5 all aspect IR seeker. Mig19P has no proper RWR, only a Syrena system which only blares from lockups directly on its Rear End. Hence a Mig driver can forget about trying to have the radar in Active mode until he gets close enough to an F5's six, because of the superior SA of the F5, it will basically just give away their position.

 

Lets not have fanboysim delude rationality of truthfully examining platform capabilitys. Mig19 Is outclassed By the F5E, compared to such an aircraft it is an underdog. A much better contemporary to the F5E is already in DCS, It is the Mig21Bis.

 

Mig19s will either have to hope they are going up against Poorer F5 pilots , Or will have to resort to flying alongside Mig21's to support them.


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It's also a bit too much to expect the MiG-19P to fight planes with all aspect IR missiles imho... If you want to recreate the gunfights and crappy missile combat there was in the 60s, no point in featuring the MiG-19 in a mission with all the toys available for the later planes.

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It's also a bit too much to expect the MiG-19P to fight planes with all aspect IR missiles imho... If you want to recreate the gunfights and crappy missile combat there was in the 60s, no point in featuring the MiG-19 in a mission with all the toys available for the later planes.

 

If you wanna recreate Vietnam then i'm sure the A and B Tiger Variant would be more realistic, didn't even have a radar and was the most numerous afaik.

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