Japanese aircraft

We have Marianas incoming and Corsair. If any Japanese aircraft were to be included as full fidelity modules Id focus on coherent setup indicative of 1944 air battles. So Val would be only secondary to Judy and Kate less relevant than Jill. Betty would be fine, but I much prefer P1Y.

I would love a WW2 Pacific option.....My favorite theater of WW2 both my grandparents served in the theater and the Japanese planes would be awesome to fly...I also think the Kate and Oscar would be cool to fly...

I do have to wonder though how feasible would a full fidelity Japanese aircraft even be? From my understanding the overwhelming majority of the documents related to anything military in Japan was burned right before/after their surrender. So is there even enough info left/SME's left to be able to make a high fidelity aircraft?

I do have to wonder though how feasible would a full fidelity Japanese aircraft even be? From my understanding the overwhelming majority of the documents related to anything military in Japan was burned right before/after their surrender. So is there even enough info left/SME's left to be able to make a high fidelity aircraft?

Well we have zeros still flying today so I think we could do it at least.

I would like to have a carrier born fighter, diver bomber and torpedo bomber for USA and Japan. So we can have carrier fleet battles.

Is the A6M5 really that bad vs the corsair? Isnt there things the Zero can do better, like sustained turns and maybe climb rate?

The zero was one of the best turn fighters of the war.

From what I’ve read, it was a rather unpleasant shock to the first Spitfires in the Far East, as even they were out-turned.

However, apparently it didn’t scale well, ie whilst it was great under say 280 knots, above that, the aero resulted in it being a serious handful, which is one reason that they never had massively more powerful engines, which is what happened in Europe. The Corsair was quite capable of 400 knots. So whilst the zero was still a brilliant turn fighter, the Corsair could and should make the choice of when to fight.

Lastly, the zero had no self sealing fuel tanks and no armour worth speaking of (the trade off for its range and manoeuvrability), so would tend to take serious damage from a hit that most other contemporary fighters might shrug off.

Planes do not shrug off the damage. Pilots do. All defensive measurements taken during the war were meant to protect the pilot and vital to pilot's survival systems. And since Zero has 20 mm cannons, its equally lethal to the opponents as they are to it.

I'm not so sure I agree with your comments there Hiromachi. For sure the pilot needs to be protected but if a few rounds have lit his wing on fire due to the absence of self sealing fuel tanks, there's not much the pilot can do about it. The Wildcats and other US planes were very well known for their ability to absorb punishment whereas the IJN and IJA planes were notorious for their fragility - both in terms of their ability to protect the pilot as well as their propensity to catch fire or fold up like a pair of 2's when hit with a few well placed rounds. The fuel and oil systems were very high on the US military's list of things to protect in addition to the armor behind the pilot's seat.

Fragility doesn't come from existence or absence of the armor but structural design. Zero in comparison to Wildcat was well constructed aircraft, able to withstand high G's (ultimate load factor was 12.7 G's!) but the moment someone would start peppering it with bullets, structure would would be exposed and failed. Reason for this, is that Jiro Horikoshi, having to produce aircraft in accordance to Navy specifications, had to impost strict weight limits and control every single bolt, rivet and duralumin sheet going into it. This was done by playing with safety factor on various elements, some elements required very high strength to be able to absorb those deck landings (landing gear) or high loads in flight (wing spars) but others were not needed like that (i.e. cockpit panels, some handles, etc.). This produced a light but strong construction, however unable to withstand extensive damage.

Though it's not like Zeros could not be damaged or never returned to base when damaged. I have some pictures of damaged airframes and there are lots of reports, indicating that aircraft were hit, often hard and got back home. I havent seen btw. any zero to fold up.

Point is, unless we're talking about something like Il-2, aircraft doesnt get any armor around its structure. Few key areas get protection (cockpit with a pilot, fuel tanks, potentially but not always oil tank and radiator) because all aircraft have weight limits imposed.

Fragility doesn't come from existence or absence of the armor but structural design. Zero in comparison to Wildcat was well constructed aircraft, able to withstand high G's (ultimate load factor was 12.7 G's!) but the moment someone would start peppering it with bullets, structure would would be exposed and failed. Reason for this, is that Jiro Horikoshi, having to produce aircraft in accordance to Navy specifications, had to impost strict weight limits and control every single bolt, rivet and duralumin sheet going into it. This was done by playing with safety factor on various elements, some elements required very high strength to be able to absorb those deck landings (landing gear) or high loads in flight (wing spars) but others were not needed like that (i.e. cockpit panels, some handles, etc.). This produced a light but strong construction, however unable to withstand extensive damage.

Though it's not like Zeros could not be damaged or never returned to base when damaged. I have some pictures of damaged airframes and there are lots of reports, indicating that aircraft were hit, often hard and got back home. I havent seen btw. any zero to fold up.

 

Point is, unless we're talking about something like Il-2, aircraft doesnt get any armor around its structure. Few key areas get protection (cockpit with a pilot, fuel tanks, potentially but not always oil tank and radiator) because all aircraft have weight limits imposed.

Correct analysis. There are so many footages where Zero is seen exploding after being hit by a single burst. Not only that, but precisely because of the absence of armor, Japanese pilots died more frequently than American ones (and not so much because of kamikazes). At the end of the war, the last series of Zero (A6M7) were equipped with armor and practically lost all advantage in terms of agility on American fighters. However, in my opinion, the Japanese fighter par excellence remains the Zero.

Correct analysis. There are so many footages where Zero is seen exploding after being hit by a single burst. Not only that, but precisely because of the absence of armor, Japanese pilots died more frequently than American ones (and not so much because of kamikazes). At the end of the war, the last series of Zero (A6M7) were equipped with armor and practically lost all advantage in terms of agility on American fighters. However, in my opinion, the Japanese fighter par excellence remains the Zero.

+1

It’s success and effectiveness early war very much showed it as being an excellent aircraft when compared to its peers.

Yup. Fuel tanks were the most vulnerable part of the design. Or more so they are the most vulnerable part of any design due to high flammability of Av gas and necessity of inclusion of them. Engine cant run without fuel after all.

Though to be fair even mid war it remained quite effective. I have somewhere a most likely a complete list of A6M losses and victories throughout 1943 in Solomon Islands campaign. It shows a near 1 : 1 exchange ratio between Zeros and competition (and that includes not only slower Wildcats, but also higher performance aircraft such as P-40s, P-38s, F4Us, couple P-47s and later even some Hellcats).

Against peer aircraft agreed.

US stats for the F4u vs the zero claim a 12:1 kill ratio (see the wiki entry for the F4).

I appreciate that it’s wiki. Just sayin’

It's a total claimed kill ratio. It includes kamikaze and combat from 1942 to 1945. I'm talking about more specific period and area.

In the same area (i.e. Solomons) Hellcats in 1943 claimed victories to losses was 4.9, for 4.1 of Wildcat and 5.4 of Corsair. So I dont doubt they had individually scored positive k/d ratio, even if the above claimed one is not perfectly accurate.

But neither of this aircraft fought Zeros on one to one. Throughout 1943 you could see raids against Rabaul escorted by Wildcats, P-38s and Corsairs. Japanese Navy had one fighter in the area, while US Navy, Air Force and Marines each had their own machines which distorts the perspective.

Anyhow, here is an example for Feb 1943:

Sidenote. I'm not the author of the above, nor did I carry the research. Research is based on the following publications:

https://www.aircraft-navalship.com/produit/model-graphix-avions/1693

https://www.aircraft-navalship.com/produit/model-graphix-avions/2133

https://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/449923123X/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=%E5%A4%A7%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%AC%E7%B5%B5%E7%94%BB%E9%9B%B6%E6%88%A6&qid=1580409501&s=books&sr=1-7

Being so much much slower than American fighters, of course, seriously hampered the airplane. While it's maneuverability is legendary, it is the faster airplane that controls the air battle. You just can't turn all day. You are going to get low on fuel, ammunition, and of course you are going to be exhausted. You are going to want to leave, to live and fight another day...but you can't. The second you level off to run, the 420mph Corsair is bearing down on your 360mph Zero.

Japans insistance on continuing to make the Zero it's primary naval fighter contributed to it's ultimate defeat. By the time the Japanese Navy admitted it needed a replacement, it was of course, too late.

Now, that said...the Mitsubishi A6M happens to be my favorite Axis airplane. A simple, elegant, beautiful design. I actually find Japanese WW2 airplanes more interesting than those of the Luftwaffe.

Lets not forget that there are many, many Corsairs, Hellcats and Wildcats laying on the bottom of the ocean and in the jungles of various islands that were brought down by the A6M. The pilot more often than not made the difference and the IJN lost too many experienced pilots during the Battle of Midway and subsequent campaigns in the Solomon islands such that more advanced and capable planes later on would be of little to no help. They just couldn't keep up with the attrition rate of their pilots.

The most important thing is you want to create coherent package, that's the way to go.

Instead of some random planes from different time, different theatres, different operations.

Great Marianas Turkey Shoot may not be the most balanced one to chose from the gameplay point of view (it may be the least balanced in the whole Pacific?), comparing to i.e. Coral Sea battle or Midway where the balance was nearly perfect in natural way.

But coherent package, even slightly unbalanced, is still better than random planes from random enviroment.

Keep up the good work!

Here is some decent video about Zero. I would add a lot to that, but at this point it begs to write another book (of which there are many already) rather than extend any video:

The most important thing is you want to create coherent package, that's the way to go.

Instead of some random planes from different time, different theatres, different operations.

 

Great Marianas Turkey Shoot may not be the most balanced one to chose from the gameplay point of view (it may be the least balanced in the whole Pacific?), comparing to i.e. Coral Sea battle or Midway where the balance was nearly perfect in natural way.

 

But coherent package is still better than random planes from random enviroment, even when artificially balanced.

Keep up the good work!

F6F-3 vs A6M5 are actually fairly balanced. Even if you compare performance figures of model 52 Zero and dash 3 Hellcat, they arent that far apart. F4U-1D is however having a substantial advantage. But this is where you can pull some strings and end up with slightly less historical, but still coherent scenario. I.e. you could introduce something like N1K1-J "George". 343rd Kokutai (not to confuse with 1945 unit, which was using same numbers but was comprised of completely different crews and sub-units) was supposed to fly those to Marianas, but slow production by Kawanishi and Navys bad policy of spreading those aircraft into couple units (341st and at least one more Kokutai) prevented them from taking newest bird in number and they had to fly in A6M5.

I have scans of the complete pilot's manuals for the A6M2 Zero (supplements for -5 and -7), B5N2 Kate, D3A Val, G4M Betty, and E13 Jake+ F1M Pete floatplanes. Courtesy of the archives of the Japanese Ministry of Defence.

And all angle photos of A6M2, A6M5, A6M5 without the skin, KI-43 Oscar, and world's only surviving G4M Betty fuselage.

All taken in the hopes of someday flying a Pacific War sim, so if this would be helpful to ED, Leatherneck, or any other devs please let me know. I have no interest in money just wanna relive the days of CFS2 in DCS...which led me down the path to becoming a military aviator myself. Very busy now in training but I can also help translate from Japanese, would be great if Japanese members wanna help though.

Please let me know if someone wants this stuff, or who on the dev side might like it.

I have scans of the complete pilot's manuals for the A6M2 Zero (supplements for -5 and -7), B5N2 Kate, D3A Val, G4M Betty, and E13 Jake+ F1M Pete floatplanes. Courtesy of the archives of the Japanese Ministry of Defence.

 

And all angle photos of A6M2, A6M5, A6M5 without the skin, KI-43 Oscar, and world's only surviving G4M Betty fuselage.

 

All taken in the hopes of someday flying a Pacific War sim, so if this would be helpful to ED, Leatherneck, or any other devs please let me know. I have no interest in money just wanna relive the days of CFS2 in DCS...which led me down the path to becoming a military aviator myself. Very busy now in training but I can also help translate from Japanese, would be great if Japanese members wanna help though.

 

Please let me know if someone wants this stuff, or who on the dev side might like it.

Jason Williams from Il-2GB series would most likely want to take a look at these, as his quest for building a Pacific Sim has been blocked by shortage of reference material. You might want to head out to the other, competing product's forum and try contact him over there.

I would call F4F-3 vs A6M4/5 would be good match up.

A6M vs Corsiar not so much

Ki-84 vs Corsair then yes.

A6M5 has substantial advantage over F4F-3, comparable to the advantage F4U-1 has over A6M5.

Again, the way I see it:

F6F-3 vs A6M5

N1K1-J / Ki-84 vs F4U

At least if we talk in context of Marianas timeframe.

A6M5 has substantial advantage over F4F-3, comparable to the advantage F4U-1 has over A6M5.

 

Again, the way I see it:

F6F-3 vs A6M5

N1K1-J / Ki-84 vs F4U

At least if we talk in context of Marianas timeframe.

Agree,I always miss remember those planes i ment F6F :P

A6M5 has substantial advantage over F4F-3, comparable to the advantage F4U-1 has over A6M5.

 

Again, the way I see it:

F6F-3 vs A6M5

N1K1-J / Ki-84 vs F4U

At least if we talk in context of Marianas timeframe.

Well, you'd better get busy Hiromachi! Those N1K1's and Ki-84's aren't gonna build themselves!! :megalol:

You would then truly be our Hero!! :thumbup:

If I obtain sufficient documentation, who knows. I have various manuals for Ki-84 (unlike for N1K1-J for which I have only handwritten piloting notes, that are barely readable) but as Yoyo would tell you, that is mere tip of the iceberg. But then again, starting point with just an Ai would already be something :)

If I obtain sufficient documentation, who knows. I have various manuals for Ki-84 (unlike for N1K1-J for which I have only handwritten piloting notes, that are barely readable) but as Yoyo would tell you, that is mere tip of the iceberg. But then again, starting point with just an Ai would already be something :)

Something like wind tunnel test, i bet that Army Air force did capture one and i did some tests with it :).