Even with the Spitfire, the bf-109 and the fw-190 will keep making the law in the sky

Hi guys,

I'm reading a book from the French Ace of the WWII, Pierre Closterman, "Le Grand Cirque", he was a pilot on Spitfire IX, V and Tempest V. (This book is amazing, if you speak French or if translated versions exist, you should take a look).

 

 

It's a super interesting book, I'm learning a lot about the different planes, about the RAF and the Luftwaffe. About the air battle in general during the WWII...etc :book:

 

(Pierre Closterman in June 1945 in his Tempest V)

 

And one part of the book is dedicated to the Luftwaffe during the '44/'45, and it's amazing. About 15/20% of the effectives are aces, whereas the rest are young pilots unable to match the allies pilots.

 

 

But this 15% of aces are just destroying everything, flying on Fw190D9 and BF109K, just like in DCS, Pierre clearly said in the book that the P-51 are vastly inferior, and even a Spitfire XVI and his IV-B are "helpless" ("impuissant" as he said) against these new fighters. The only ones able to fight these fighters were the Tempest V and the Spit XIV.

 

 

He tells the story of 38 Fw190A8 engaging 150 P-51/P-38 after destroying 34 B-24 !! The Luftwaffe lost 12 190, the US 13 fighters... Later Konrad Bauer, German ace fought alone 7 P-51 in a Fw190D9, and killed 3 them before coming back to his base, injured.

 

 

What is the point of talking about all of that ?

 

 

Well, I get why we have a Spitfire IX, it's perfect for the Normandy map taking place in '43/'44, but what the point of fighting late model of the 109 and 190 with such fighters ? The P-51D is a joke, it's impossible to win against a good 109/190 pilot if you aren't coming right to his six and without a wingman, and the Spitfire will just be good for turning and the 2x 20mm will help a lot, but for the rest we will be out-performed easily.

 

 

Why making such good plane for the Germans, but for the allies giving them 1 to 2 years older fighters ? Oh and good luck for the future P-40... :D

 

I just want fair duels. The only way for allies to fight Luftwaffe's planes is to out number them, but in DCS there is way more people flying 109/190 than people flying the P-51 (guess why...), Maybe it will be better with the upcoming Spitfire.

 

I'm just sad to know that I will fly the beautiful Spitfire, but I will again, like with the P-51D, having a very very hard time doing something interesting against a good 109/190 pilot, flying a more advanced aircraft. :cry:

 

Sorry for grammar errors and the long post, just wanted to express my opinion, as controversial as it could be.

 

This is one of my favourite books and I cannot recall him ever stating that about the aircraft.

 

I think what he actually meant was that the pilots were helpless against these aces not the aircraft.

 

That said I do agree that it is odd that the allies are getting the most common aircraft and the axis the rare ones...

Edited December 16, 2016 by Krupi

Well, I get why we have a Spitfire IX, it's perfect for the Normandy map taking place in '43/'44, but what the point of fighting late model of the 109 and 190 with such fighters ? The P-51D is a joke, it's impossible to win against a good 109/190 pilot if you aren't coming right to his six and without a wingman, and the Spitfire will just be good for turning and the 2x 20mm will help a lot, but for the rest we will be out-performed easily.

 

 

Why making such good plane for the Germans, but for the allies giving them 1 to 2 years older fighters ? Oh and good luck for the future P-40... :D

If thats your approach to this than I feel not even F-16 would suffice ...

P-51 is not a joke and is a capable fighter, especially against 190. K-4 is harder, indeed, but I'd not say its impossible to win against one. And of course one should have a wingmen, I mean its not a duel arena but open server so flying in organized group is the way to go :pilotfly:

 

Also, I'd take any memoirs with decent grain of salt. Just because one veteran says so, doesnt mean it was that way.

The translated version is called 'The Big Show'. Along with 'First Light' by Geoffrey Wellum, I'd consider both to be essential reading.:thumbup:

Don't care about "game play balance", I want to fly historical planes. On online servers also you will rarely fly as they were flown in real life, not to mention that not everyone flying is an experienced pilot and regardless it will always be better against humans because the AI is really bad.

 

The way to make ww2 servers fun will be when we have a variety of things to do like escorting bombers and such.

 

If you think about air quake of course you will find the bf109 dominating but that's because it's arguably better.

I am going to reread first light while I learn the spit. Brilliant book. I have not read the other but am halfway through Johnnie Johnson s wing leader to coincide with Bunyaps video series and skimming through 6 armies in Normandy but it's rather heavy:)

This is one of my favourite books and I cannot recall him ever stating that about the aircraft.

 

I think what he actually meant was that the pilots were helpless against these aces not the aircraft.

 

Not really, he talks multiple time around the 350 pages about how superior germans figthers are, but, luckly for the allies, the majority of germans pilots weren't that good because all the old pilots died and they didn't had the time to properly train new pilots.

 

Not sure If I can post this picture, if it's an issue tell me I will delete them, but here he talks about the situation (well, if you don't speak french good luck :P )

 

 

If thats your approach to this than I feel not even F-16 would suffice ...

P-51 is not a joke and is a capable fighter, especially against 190. K-4 is harder, indeed, but I'd not say its impossible to win against one. And of course one should have a wingmen, I mean its not a duel arena but open server so flying in organized group is the way to go :pilotfly:

 

Also, I'd take any memoirs with decent grain of salt. Just because one veteran says so, doesnt mean it was that way.

 

Honestly there is no way a P-51 can fight a good 109 pilot, however against a 190 I agree, you can win.

 

Also yes it's not because one ace pilot say this that it's 100% true. But I think it's a good overview of the situation, he piloted many different RAF planes and fought a lot of germans planes.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Theskyline35

i would just wait and see how it turns out...the spit is not even there yet...might be its very well capable of representing a lethal oponent to 190s and 109s. my personal guess is, that many "109 pilots" will all of a sudden jump sides and become spit pilots, as they will not be able to cope with the better turn rate they are all of a sudden facing...

 

about P-51,...lets just hope it gets its appropriate boost soon...still, its not useless at all already. if the 109 makes a mistake, or is flown by a pilot who doesnt use it to its full potential, or if a experienced 109 pilot is catched with a slight energy disadvantage, the P51 is already very capable...

 

but yes,...i would also love to see more 109 variants, and also later models for the allies...lets just hope VEAO's spit mk xiv will be soon ready...

Edited December 16, 2016 by 9./JG27 DavidRed

You are wrong, even though I'm not a great, pilot I know quite a few who effectively fought 109 and won the dogfights - its hard and chances of winning are not high because 109 is simply more suited for this kind of combat, but its again not impossible. Albeit, its yet another artificial situation since one on one combat is far from realities of war.

 

You could find many other pilots who did so as well and they will have their own opinions. Memoirs are great for understanding the situation and how one felt about that, but any numbers and conclusions sometimes tend to be inaccurate. And its not only related to P. Closterman, its related to pretty much any pilot and any human being - our memory is not perfect :)

"Oh and good luck for the future P-40... "

Now that will be a challenge ! It does bring a smile to my face thinking about engine management and flight characteristics I have fallen in love with it over the road so to speak !

off topic, but you really got one of the most amusing forum names here :) really like it! :)

i would just wait and see how it turns out...the spit is not even there yet...might be its very well capable of representing a lethal oponent to 190s and 109s. my personal guess is, that many "109 pilots" will all of a sudden jump sides and become spit pilots, as they will not be able to cope with the better turn rate they are all of a sudden facing...

 

about P-51,...lets just hope it gets its appropriate boost soon...still, its not useless at all already. if the 109 makes a mistake, or is flown by a pilot who doesnt use it to its full potential, or if a experienced 109 pilot is catched with a slight energy disadvantage, the P51 is already very capable...

 

but yes,...i would also love to see more 109 variants, and also later models for the allies...lets just hope VEAO's spit mk xiv will be soon ready...

 

Maybe I'm really a bad pilot in P51, but I fought with it a lot, and there is 3 cases :

 

1/ It's a Fw190, I have my chances when I take off with less than 30% of fuel

 

2/ It's a Bf109, if we don't out number them and they are good pilots, we are dead, we can't even escape and we don't fly high enough to take advantage of the compressor

 

3/ I'm sneaking behind a 109, the first few seconds are extremely important, if you miss you shots, the 109 will out run you, will turn harder or will climb way faster, it's over for you.

 

In P-51D you bleed energy super fast, you can't climb faster, you can't turn as hard, your fire power isn't as good (thanks DCS for this great damage model) but the gyro is cool... The P51D really need a power boost like he had over the France in '44

 

You are wrong, even though I'm not a great, pilot I know quite a few who effectively fought 109 and won the dogfights - its hard and chances of winning are not high because 109 is simply more suited for this kind of combat, but its again not impossible. Albeit, its yet another artificial situation since one on one combat is far from realities of war.

 

You could find many other pilots who did so as well and they will have their own opinions. Memoirs are great for understanding the situation and how one felt about that, but any numbers and conclusions sometimes tend to be inaccurate. And its not only related to P. Closterman, its related to pretty much any pilot and any human being - our memory is not perfect :)

 

Yeah of course ! But just look at the stats, good Luftwaffe pilot were just destroying P-51D and '44 Spitfire Models. There is no doubt about that, the 109 and 190 were amazing machines and in good hands you had simply no chance to win...if it was a good pilot of course :(

 

off topic, but you really got one of the most amusing forum names here :) really like it! :)

 

Mine ?

Edited December 16, 2016 by Theskyline35

Now i get what you mean. Probably because we are facing the latest german variants while getting slightly older occidental versions. This of course will make it more challenging.

Yeah of course ! But just look at the stats, good Luftwaffe pilot were just destroying P-51D and '44 Spitfire Models. There is no doubt about that, the 109 and 190 were amazing machines and in good hands you had simply no chance to win :(

 

You mind pointing me those statistics ? I'd very much like to know all the aces destroying P-51s and Spitfires.

 

In a good hands Zero could survive a combat with more than a dozen of Hellcats.

You mind pointing me those statistics ? I'd very much like to know all the aces destroying P-51s and Spitfires.

 

In a good hands Zero could survive a combat with more than a dozen of Hellcats.

 

For the stat I'm just refering to the book : Just 25 FW190 handled 150 P-51/P-38 and downed 28 B-17 at the same time (25 were chasing, 13 were fighting the bomber).

 

With all the archives from the RAF and luftwaffe combined, we know that around 30,000 germans fighters were lost (+7300 damaged from 10 to 60%), 11.000 pilots dead, 10.800 injured. The luftwaffe downed around 25.500 planes on the West front.

 

The Allies lost +40.000 aircraft on the West.

Just because you suck, doesn't mean the plane does... :P

 

In all seriousness though let's wait till it arrives to pronounce it a lost cause. Wags said its a monster and I think it will fly a lot like the TF-51 does now ( totally outclasses the 109, just doesn't have guns ;) ).

That's not a statistic if you refer to only one book with specific event mentioned. Personally, I'd like to know units participating and their combat reports to be able to validate the losses. Taking for granted numbers is not the way to go.

Just because you suck, doesn't mean the plane does... :P

 

In all seriousness though let's wait till it arrives to pronounce it a lost cause. Wags said its a monster and I think it will fly a lot like the TF-51 does now ( totally outclasses the 109, just doesn't have guns ;) ).

 

Well maybe I'm really bad yeah :D

At the end of the day flying in a quake war online in any sim is far removed from reality of what it was like in 1944

At the end of the day flying in a quake war online in any sim is far removed from reality of what it was like in 1944

 

Of course, that's why having bomber (or lighter aircraft like ju-88, huricane...etc) escort on Normandy map will make a massive difference !

At the end of the day flying in a quake war online in any sim is far removed from reality of what it was like in 1944

 

+1

On D-Day 12500 Allied Planes facing 800 Germans one, they could attack with Biplanes would still win (little bit over the top I know)

There was not much of dogfight that most pilot facing at the War, more hit and Run with aware of altitude advantage numbers so on, because Humans have strong fidelity to here live dogfight is that one that don't increase this.

 

And also hopping the solid Base of DCS Fighters we currently develop, make is easier and faster for yoyo to make different Variants later on Griffin Powered one german G14 G10 .

Edited December 16, 2016 by MAD-MM

Sorry to say but,

 

Hi guys,

I'm reading a book from the French Ace of the WWII, Pierre Closterman, "Le Grand Cirque", he was a pilot on Spitfire IX, V and Tempest V. (This book is amazing, if you speak French or if translated versions exist, you should take a look).

Interesting, yes, but Pierre Closterman was a very well known liar and his book is sci-fi. He don't hesitate in saying P-51 or whatever the allied aeroplane was vastly inferior so his own "feats" (or not so, as he's known for inventing his kills) against an overwhelmingly superior Luftwaffe appears to be even greater than he already tries to show off. Reality is he wasn't a very good pilot, and his achievements wasn't even half what he claimed, if so. He flew in a Europe where allied air forces really outclassed and vastly surpassed the Luftwaffe, so he wasn't in a so big threat daily as he wants to pretend. Look for it, all that stuff is very well documented. Nice book BTW, but just an adventures novel with little reality.

 

 

S!

about the book.

 

I remember that in the chapter "Radar at dawn" he talks about how the better turning spitfire helped him win vs a 109 that had energy advantage on him.

 

He also talks how he got shot down by a fw190 ace and that he made a childish mistake.So Ala13 you didn't read the book because he wasn't really showing off .

 

What he writes about he's squadron is probably the truth but In the end Closterman was not a historian so what he writes about Walter Nowotny for example is not accurate and it probably what he heard or read in some newspaper at the time .

 

In the end no matter what airplane you fly sometimes the grass is greener on the other side.

Edited December 16, 2016 by otto

I recommend this book... SPITFIRE into battle

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spitfire-Battle-W-G-G-Duncan-Smith-x/dp/0719554845

 

And yes he is related to everyones favourite bald tory! :D

 

He goes into depth on his experiences in DAF and 2TAF, very good read.

 

Regardless of how truthful Clostermans book is, he certainly knows how to write and it had me by the short and curlies many times.

Edited December 16, 2016 by Krupi

about the book.

 

I remember that in the chapter "Radar at dawn" he talks about how the better turning spitfire helped him win vs a 109 that had energy advantage on him.

 

He also talks how he got shot down by a fw190 ace and that he made a childish mistake.So Ala13 you didn't read the book because he wasn't really showing off .

 

What he writes about he's squadron is probably the truth but In the end Closterman was not a historian so what he writes about Walter Nowotny for example is not accurate and it probably what he heard or read in some newspaper at the time .

 

In the end no matter what airplane you fly sometimes the grass is greener on the other side.

 

 

Yes that chapter was hilarious! :lol:

 

"Don't worry lads this one's on me... Whoops" :thumbup: