Hyundae Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 Does anyone know ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrz Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 That's new to me. What makes you believe that the real MiG-29 requires full aft stick for the flare? i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mars Exulte Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 Off top of my head in the videos I've seen... no, it doesn't. But see, when you make a vague claim, more of a vague phrase, it's kind of hard to take you seriously. Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти. 5800x3d * 3090 * 64gb * Reverb G2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyundae Posted June 23, 2019 Author Share Posted June 23, 2019 The real world flight manual its written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrz Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 (edited) Where? Looking at the various MiG-29 landing videos I've not seen a single landing where the pilots applies full aft stick during the flare. Edited June 23, 2019 by bbrz i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvsgas Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 (edited) Does anyone know ? I don't know why and I don't know if it does in fact need full aft stick. But do you mean like this video? Not saying this is full aft stick, just trying to understand your point. Both video are set up for time, just hit play or or Edited June 23, 2019 by mvsgas To whom it may concern, I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that. Thank you for you patience. Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrz Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 Especially on the 2nd video it's clearly visible that he applies full aft stick well after touchdown. This can be noticed much better when looking at MiG-29 landings from the outside view. i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derodo Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 Increase drag to help the aircraft slowing down maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhand Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 (edited) From "Pilot Technique and Aerial Navigation for the MiG-29 Aircraft (2nd edition, revised and supplemented)": From a height of 10 ... 8 m (depending on the vertical rate of descent) begin leveling off, reducing the descent glide angle so as to bring the plane to the ground (stop the descent) at a height of o.8 ... 0.5 m. With a further reduction of speed bringing the plane to the ground, it is right to move the throttle to the IDLE position. Commensurate with the approach of the aircraft to the runway moving (pulling) the control stick toward yourself will establish the aircraft in landing position. The movement of the control stick in the process of leveling is significant: from neutral to almost completely "into yourself." The aircraft will land softly at a speed of 260...250 km/h with a landing angle of attack of about 11°. I often settle to the runway with the stick almost all the way back on the occasions I land smoothly assuming my airspeed isn’t to fast. What’s written above is what makes me wonder if the “reverse ground effect” we talk about should be there. This counteracts it. Increase drag to help the aircraft slowing down maybe? Exactly why it’s done there. Helps in slowing it down. Edited June 23, 2019 by Ironhand YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg _____ Win 10 Pro x64, ASUS Z97 Pro MoBo, Intel i7-4790K, EVGA GTX 970 4GB, HyperX Savage 32GB, Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB SSD, 2x Seagate Hybrid Drive 2TB Raid 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrz Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 (edited) What’s written above is what makes me wonder if the “reverse ground effect” we talk about should be there. This counteracts it. Great info concerning the handling :) , but 'almost' doesn't equal 'full'. Concerning the ground effect; If there's no AoA change then is must be something else. As mentioned before, the pitch down moment might be the effect of the altered stabilizer downwash. Have to re-test but AFAIR the pitch down occurs way too early/high for this effect to be the reason. Edited June 23, 2019 by bbrz i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWasp Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 Look at the landing from 0:45 This clearly shows the elevator movements. Maybe we could even estimate the exact height at which the horizontal stab enters the ground effect and needs a lot of nose up input to counter. I would agree, that in comparison to this video, in DCS this effect seems to start early. But I am quite sure it is the same thing. https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3958512&postcount=141 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyundae Posted June 23, 2019 Author Share Posted June 23, 2019 From "Pilot Technique and Aerial Navigation for the MiG-29 Aircraft (2nd edition, revised and supplemented)": From a height of 10 ... 8 m (depending on the vertical rate of descent) begin leveling off, reducing the descent glide angle so as to bring the plane to the ground (stop the descent) at a height of o.8 ... 0.5 m. With a further reduction of speed bringing the plane to the ground, it is right to move the throttle to the IDLE position. Commensurate with the approach of the aircraft to the runway moving (pulling) the control stick toward yourself will establish the aircraft in landing position. The movement of the control stick in the process of leveling is significant: from neutral to almost completely "into yourself." The aircraft will land softly at a speed of 260...250 km/h with a landing angle of attack of about 11°. I often settle to the runway with the stick almost all the way back on the occasions I land smoothly assuming my airspeed isn’t to fast. What’s written above is what makes me wonder if the “reverse ground effect” we talk about should be there. This counteracts it. Exactly why it’s done there. Helps in slowing it down. Great information ! On the Russian landing style, I think that the air speed more bleed off. The special range from 0.8~.5 m to grond, lts airplnae have throttle idle and the pilot try to nearly full back stick for touchdown. If so, Its airplne have some above the stall speed. Most simply say, The pilot try to flare again unlike western style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrz Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 I don't know what a 'Russian' and a 'Western' style landing is in your opinion, but you do flare in the West as well. i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yufighter Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 6:30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhand Posted June 23, 2019 Share Posted June 23, 2019 (edited) I don't know what a 'Russian' and a 'Western' style landing is in your opinion, but you do flare in the West as well. The Russian approach requires a constant speed reduction along the glide path...at least during a visual approach. I think that’s what he’s referring to. Edit: I guess a better way to express it may be that the West tends to fly an AoA in aircraft with that instrument. Edited June 23, 2019 by Ironhand YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg _____ Win 10 Pro x64, ASUS Z97 Pro MoBo, Intel i7-4790K, EVGA GTX 970 4GB, HyperX Savage 32GB, Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB SSD, 2x Seagate Hybrid Drive 2TB Raid 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrz Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Edit: I guess a better way to express it may be that the West tends to fly an AoA in aircraft with that instrument. Flying AoA or IAS doesn't make any difference during the approach. In most aircraft you fly approaches in good visibility at a much higher speed than necessary. Even in a 747 it's sufficient to reach the correct approach speed at 500ft AGL. i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyundae Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) The Russian approach requires a constant speed reduction along the glide path...at least during a visual approach. I think that’s what he’s referring to. Edit: I guess a better way to express it may be that the West tends to fly an AoA in aircraft with that instrument. This video linked by HWasp member seems to show very well the Russian style landing. In the above video, roll out complete at 48 seconds. From then on, the pilot seems to be trying to slow down ... Pretty much progress at similar altitudes for a while. If it was a Western landing style, it seemed to have a shorter touchdown. However, it is only my thought to the last. Edited June 24, 2019 by Hyundae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyundae Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) From "Pilot Technique and Aerial Navigation for the MiG-29 Aircraft (2nd edition, revised and supplemented)": From a height of 10 ... 8 m (depending on the vertical rate of descent) begin leveling off, reducing the descent glide angle so as to bring the plane to the ground (stop the descent) at a height of o.8 ... 0.5 m. With a further reduction of speed bringing the plane to the ground, it is right to move the throttle to the IDLE position. Commensurate with the approach of the aircraft to the runway moving (pulling) the control stick toward yourself will establish the aircraft in landing position. The movement of the control stick in the process of leveling is significant: from neutral to almost completely "into yourself." The aircraft will land softly at a speed of 260...250 km/h with a landing angle of attack of about 11°. Greate information ! I made use of the feeling of Russian Pilot as you explained above, and I followed the landing. Of course my landing was not perfect. The Russian thinks that the MiG-29's touchdown speed is a very important factor. My approach speed: 310~320 km/h (Real world flight manual: minimum 175 knots, entering the fialnal approach) AOA: I'M NOT SURE 1st flare init: I'M NOT SURE (Real world flight manual: 20~30 feet) I stopped th descent at 10 feet (I'm sure the view the track file) Throttle to idling at 10 feet. 2nd flare intitiating...I'm use only pitching Touch down Speed: approximately 140 knots (250 km/h) AOA: 12.9 (Real world flight manual: 11 degrees, Do not excced 13 degrees) When I landed like this, the speed was definitely reduced. The noticable is that: 1. Bouncing is reduced at the touchdown 2. The phenomenon of the plane swinging back and forth was reduced. But in the real world, the second flare will start right after the first. I gave it a term to show it in the video. Anyway, the developer of the dcs seems to have spent a lot of effort to the realistic landing. My video: Edited June 24, 2019 by Hyundae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhand Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) ... My approach speed: 310~320 km/h (Real world flight manual: minimum 175 knots, entering the fialnal approach) AOA: I'M NOT SURE 1st flare init: I'M NOT SURE (Real world flight manual: 20~30 feet) I stopped th descent at 10 feet (I'm sure the view the track file) Throttle to idling at 10 feet. 2nd flare intitiating...I'm use only pitching Touch down Speed: approximately 140 knots (250 km/h) AOA: 12.9 (Real world flight manual: 11 degrees, Do not excced 13 degrees) When I landed like this, the speed was definitely reduced. The noticable is that: 1. Bouncing is reduced at the touchdown 2. The phenomenon of the plane swinging back and forth was reduced. But in the real world, the second flare will start right after the first. I gave it a term to show it in the video. Anyway, the developer of the dcs seems to have spent a lot of effort to the realistic landing. My video: Nice landing, though the 12.9° of pitch was scary, since after 13° your engines are scraping. In fact, at first viewing, I thought they had. The bouncing and swinging seem to be related to the landing speed. The slower you land, the less pronounced they are. I've also noticed that, with no ammo loaded, that "dive" for the runway (negative ground effect) disappears with lesser fuel levels. It's there for 50% fuel (though it seems less pronounced) and below 30%, I didn't notice it at all: Edited June 24, 2019 by Ironhand Replace original with better quality video YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg _____ Win 10 Pro x64, ASUS Z97 Pro MoBo, Intel i7-4790K, EVGA GTX 970 4GB, HyperX Savage 32GB, Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB SSD, 2x Seagate Hybrid Drive 2TB Raid 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrz Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 (edited) I've also noticed that, with no ammo loaded, that "dive" for the runway (negative ground effect) disappears with lesser fuel levels. It's there for 50% fuel (though it seems less pronounced) and below 30%, I didn't notice it at all: Strange. Even with 14% fuel the pitch down moment is very noticable on my install... Btw, you cheated. Touchdown occurred without any thrust reduction ;) Edited June 24, 2019 by bbrz i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhand Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Strange. Even with 14% fuel the pitch down moment is very noticable on my install... Btw, you cheated. Touchdown occurred without any thrust reduction ;) Odd. I flew this this morning on a clean install (new this weekend) of the OB. Replayed the track on my old OB install which is loaded with aircraft, maps, and mods. The track played exactly the same. Maybe I’m just improving. :) Didn’t feel a need to retard the throttle. :) Seemed to be slowing and settling nicely. YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg _____ Win 10 Pro x64, ASUS Z97 Pro MoBo, Intel i7-4790K, EVGA GTX 970 4GB, HyperX Savage 32GB, Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB SSD, 2x Seagate Hybrid Drive 2TB Raid 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbrz Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Maybe I’m just improving. Same here. Since you've provided the info how much back stick is used during the flare, and knowing that the reduced stab downwash is almost perfectly simulated, I find it easier to land the MiG-29. I chop the thottle to idle when crossing the threshold and pull back, almost like landing a Super Cub. Works exactly as in the videos. :) i7-7700K 4.2GHz, 16GB, GTX 1070 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steinsch Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 @ Ironman: super smooth touchdown! @ All: After watching all these recently shared videos of Migs landing, I have the feeling that Russians often approach the runway on a more shallow glide slope than their Western counterparts. Is it a wrong perception/optical illusion or have you noticed the same? Steinsch Flying Virtual F-15s since 1989 YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/c/CommanderSteinsch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyundae Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 (edited) @ Ironman: super smooth touchdown! @ All: After watching all these recently shared videos of Migs landing, I have the feeling that Russians often approach the runway on a more shallow glide slope than their Western counterparts. Is it a wrong perception/optical illusion or have you noticed the same?. Wow ~ It's a very smooth and seems to be realistic landing ! I also feel like teaching at a Russian flying school in a different way from the Western way. For example, it seems that the rate of descent depends more on the pitch of the stick. Edited June 25, 2019 by Hyundae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironhand Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 ... @ All: After watching all these recently shared videos of Migs landing, I have the feeling that Russians often approach the runway on a more shallow glide slope than their Western counterparts. Is it a wrong perception/optical illusion or have you noticed the same? Thank you. Don't quite know how to answer thatThe Russian manuals (Su-27, MiG-29, MiG-21) I've cracked open cite that you should be at roughly 200-210 meters height over the outer marker and over the inner marker at 50-60 meters. I think that's about a 3° slope (?). The same manuals cited a vertical speed of 3-5 m/sec. If you follow this, you'll be below the DCS ILS slope all the way in. . Wow ~ It's a very smooth and seems to be realistic landing ! I also feel like teaching at a Russian flying school in a different way from the Western way. For example, it seems that the rate of descent depends more on the pitch of the stick. Thanks. :) It felt really good, too. YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg _____ Win 10 Pro x64, ASUS Z97 Pro MoBo, Intel i7-4790K, EVGA GTX 970 4GB, HyperX Savage 32GB, Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB SSD, 2x Seagate Hybrid Drive 2TB Raid 0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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