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F-15 and BVR question


Kilo 4-2

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All I've heard about the F-15 is how great it is at BVR combat. destroys a target before it can react. I'm finding it to be the exact opposite. Ppl tell me I need to get within 8 miles. How is that bvr?

 

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The effectiveness of the F15 and BVR is dependent on several factors. I've had kills at 20 miles, and some here have had longer range kills. My own experience shows pretty good effectiveness at around 14 to 16 miles. Staying higher and faster than the enemy is a big factor.

 

In real life, the F15 can kill at much longer ranges, but that wouldn't be much fun in the sim.

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People are referring to the area where the AMRAAM has a higher pK, called the NEZ. This is typically around 8-12 miles in a level, head-on engagement. And FWIW, 8 miles is still Beyond Visual Range...you're not going to see a fighter size target at that distance.

 

I've had reasonable success at ranges upwards of 20 miles in high closure rate engagements against aircraft such as the MiG-25/MiG-31. If you're talking about online multiplayer, there are many other factors such as personal/server lag that can create problems. There are also some issues with AAM guidance algorithms right now that are exploited by most online players.

 

ED have stated they plan to address these problems when they begin work on the AIM-120s for the F/A-18.

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People are referring to the area where the AMRAAM has a higher pK, called the NEZ. This is typically around 8-12 miles in a level, head-on engagement. And FWIW, 8 miles is still Beyond Visual Range...you're not going to see a fighter size target at that distance.

 

I've had reasonable success at ranges upwards of 20 miles in high closure rate engagements against aircraft such as the MiG-25/MiG-31. If you're talking about online multiplayer, there are many other factors such as personal/server lag that can create problems. There are also some issues with AAM guidance algorithms right now that are exploited by most online players.

 

ED have stated they plan to address these problems when they begin work on the AIM-120s for the F/A-18.

 

Can you outline what are some of the guidance problems that players exploit? From what i've noticed, AMRAAM lofting algorithm is really bad, especially for longer ranges, so it literally drops from 2000kn of velocity to 1000kn when it reaches the 10nm to the target, which gives it a hopeless chance to actually hit the target. What are the exploits that you are referring to since it makes a big disadvantage to the aggressor?

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The AIM-9 and AIM-7 already perform accurately per the information available. All other MRMs should benefit from improved guidance algorithms, not just the AIM-120.

 

Specifically I'm referring to the missile constantly pulling high G lead pursuit vectors unnecessarily at long ranges, leading to bleeding excessive energy. It's a known issue and has been discussed to death and acknowledged by ED.

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The AIM-9

 

More or less, in terms of fly-out.

 

and AIM-7 already perform accurately per the information available.

 

No? It's the opposite. According to very in-depth information available.

 

All other MRMs should benefit from improved guidance algorithms, not just the AIM-120.

 

Specifically I'm referring to the missile constantly pulling high G lead pursuit vectors unnecessarily at long ranges, leading to bleeding excessive energy. It's a known issue and has been discussed to death and acknowledged by ED.

 

And the fix is 'easy', but it isn't the only thing that should be addressed for guidance. It would be a nice start though.

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People are referring to the area where the AMRAAM has a higher pK, called the NEZ. This is typically around 8-12 miles in a level, head-on engagement. And FWIW, 8 miles is still Beyond Visual Range...you're not going to see a fighter size target at that distance.

 

No, the NEZ is very specifically a range inside of which you cannot prevent the missile from reaching the aircraft. It doesn't mean you cannot defeat it, it means it will always have the energy to reach the target - typically this range is shorter than Rtr. Given that 120A Rtr should be (and is not in-game) around 13nm at 20000' 0.9M co-alt/speed etc, there's a bit of guidance work to be done, at minimum.

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Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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I never said it couldn't be defeated, just that it has a higher pK...I see I'm your new favorite target though so I'll just refrain from commenting on these types of threads in the future. ;)

 

I was under the impression the Sparrow was behaving itself per the flyout information IASGATG was able to reconstruct from various sources. Evidently I am misremembering.

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More or less, in terms of fly-out.

 

 

 

No? It's the opposite. According to very in-depth information available.

 

 

 

And the fix is 'easy', but it isn't the only thing that should be addressed for guidance. It would be a nice start though.

 

For simple PN guidance like the SARH we have, is it just the control loop being incorrectly implemented? (Disregarding MP lag and lottery ECCM)

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AIM-7 already perform accurately per the information available.

 

Umm... I'm not some CFD expert but an artificial velocity cap of about 1000kn at medium altitude doesn't seem quite right to me... This turd of a boom stick has a max effective range of only maybe 6mn if you're head-on and feeling lucky. (Not to mention it eats chaff for lunch lol)

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Bah, you're just the flavor of the day ;)

 

You're right, Pk is higher.

 

Regarding the Sparrow, it's close but matching the actual long ranges is not easy. That's on a straight-out fly-out. If we talk about more in depth behavior, a lot of stuff is missing (not just from sparrow) and here we come back to use of simple PN and nothing but.

 

So, sparrow will actually do some interesting things like reduce the PN constant until in terminal mode (4.5nm or so away from target) - it basically has a long range and a dogfight mode. There is more to it than that, but basically let's consider those two.

 

There are other behaviors that have to do with the seeker and target search modes - the missile is basically launched blind, executes something called an 'English bias' command, and then searches for the target based on information fed to it prior to launch - so the doppler filter is applied then, and if the search fails they throw that filter wide open for example.

 

All of this stuff is important for all kinds of reasons.

 

You have some logic like:

Launch at target inside 10nm: Dogfight mode (unsafe fuze earlier, allow maneuvering earlier)

Launch at target outside 10nm: LRM mode - unsafe fuze later, don't maneuver much at launch.

Terminal mode: (4.5nm from target) Remove restrictions from PN, arm fuzes etc.

FLOOD launch: Dogfight mode, wide open doppler filter and use mothership g-bias for initial steering.

 

And so on and so forth.

 

Like I said, the flight dynamics are close, but IIRC still a bit short ranged.

 

I never said it couldn't be defeated, just that it has a higher pK...I see I'm your new favorite target though so I'll just refrain from commenting on these types of threads in the future. ;)

 

I was under the impression the Sparrow was behaving itself per the flyout information IASGATG was able to reconstruct from various sources. Evidently I am misremembering.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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No need for CFD in this case.

 

Umm... I'm not some CFD expert but an artificial velocity cap of about 1000kn at medium altitude doesn't seem quite right to me... This turd of a boom stick has a max effective range of only maybe 6mn if you're head-on and feeling lucky. (Not to mention it eats chaff for lunch lol)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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