Latest flap changes

Hi Hummingbird,

I love 'flying' the 14 that HB have created and agree 100% ... like you, I want it to be as accurate as possible - its good and bad points.

However, phrase like 'things like the would never be done in real life.' from the developer give me concern, when there are real pilots saying that they did it in training and damn the consequences, and I'm sure would do it in a real shooting war when a bent plane is less important than death.

As the video in Erikki's post points out, its one of the things that made the 14 such a great fighter and did happen!

For me, not speaking for anyone else, I like to simulate RL BFM as opposed to training with safety of flight rules, knock it off calls, random faults and maintenance concerns ;) I'm just fortunate I can dump my bent 14 down and grab a new plane for next time! I have serious respect for those that did it for real.

He did mention pulling the AUX flaps circuitbraker which are the main inboard flaps. Also pulled the mid compressor bypass CB which gave the TF30 2k lbs of extra thrust haha. What a guy.

What a guy.

https://tucson.com/news/local/top-gun-pilot-forgot-landing-gear/article_0e5210b2-8814-50fa-b8ba-03beaa5ab3ba.html

A game, sure, but in the enthusiast/professional simulator category. Hence there are some boundaries you want to stay within unless you want to lose that distinction of "simulator"

 

Specifically I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to use the aux flaps in a fight if you so wish. Everything you can or could do in real life should be possible in a sim. What I am saying is that with this freedom the realistic consequences, both aerodynamically & damage wise, should accompany a decision to do so, otherwise it becomes very gamey.

Flat scissors is the only place you'd do that, and it is the last place you want to be in the real world. Known 1v1 is a bit different.

You better kill your opponent, because you aren't going to run away from anyone.

What a guy.

 

https://tucson.com/news/local/top-gun-pilot-forgot-landing-gear/article_0e5210b2-8814-50fa-b8ba-03beaa5ab3ba.html

:lol:

However, phrase like 'things like the would never be done in real life.' from the developer give me concern, when there are real pilots saying that they did it in training and damn the consequences, and I'm sure would do it in a real shooting war when a bent plane is less important than death.

Apart from a real pilot just answering your question, it is not that we said "not done at all", but abusing flaps beyond the point where they are most likely to break: no that would not be done in real life. That is what fat creason meant, can't just pull it out of context. That, too, is part of the realism, and while it is nice to quote some youtube videos, we can actually go and ask the pilots more specifically and in depth, etc... I think by now it should be clear that this module strives for realism like few others and has more in depth SME input than most likely any other single module sim product known so far. :)

We also need to be a bit clear about what we are talking here: Flaps already give you the 3°/sec boost as they should in BFM. But what is not realistic is that you deploy them at 400 kts or 300 kts or 275 kts even without receiving any drag penalty, damaging them, etc etc.. At a certain point "that would not be done in real life" because it would have a far greater negative effect than positive for your BFM. That is what we are talking about and that is what is being tweaked at the moment. No one is taking away your ability to use flaps during BFM within a realistic envelope. Go beyond it, you can still use them, but you will have to deal with the consequences.

Ironmike:thumbup:! My congratulations for the Heatblur F-14!

It’s like the real aircraft! simulating the unique flying qualities off the F-14 and beyond!

The F-14 is built as strong as a train! Grumman Iron works!

So you could do thinks with them beyond what you could do with other aircraft, or in newer aircraft it is blocked by fly-by-wire computers.

In the 80’s the F-14A was often configured beyond Natops manuals by well-trained and experience F-14 Crews , to compensate for the TF-30 shortcomings.

Thinks like over-G (8-8,5G was not uncommon during training) , deploying the glove vanes, deploying flaps at much higher speeds and G load, shutdown the AWG-9 radar and therefore to shut down the cooling to it, which could give you more thrust for the TF-30’s(less bleed demand).

This in combination with the correct rudder and stick input makes it a formidable BFM fighter, but also a very tricky fighter at the edge of the envelope, it could backfire quickly!

From my understanding, AUX flap circuited breaker was pulled to keep the AUX flaps UP when selecting Full flaps. The AUX flap had no advantage in BFM and only causes extra drag and where more vulnerable to break(G load), but the main flaps could handle the optimum 200-350kts speed regime! When the circuited breaker was pull the wing sweep was disabled!

Regards Erikki

Ironmike:thumbup:! My congratulations for the Heatblur F-14!

It’s like the real aircraft! simulating the unique flying qualities off the F-14 and beyond!

 

The F-14 is built as strong as a train! Grumman Iron works!

So you could do thinks with them beyond what you could do with other aircraft, or in newer aircraft it is blocked by fly-by-wire computers.

In the 80’s the F-14A was often configured beyond Natops manuals by well-trained and experience F-14 Crews , to compensate for the TF-30 shortcomings.

Thinks like over-G (8-8,5G was not uncommon during training) , deploying the glove vanes, deploying flaps at much higher speeds and G load, shutdown the AWG-9 radar and therefore to shut down the cooling to it, which could give you more thrust for the TF-30’s(less bleed demand).

This in combination with the correct rudder and stick input makes it a formidable BFM fighter, but also a very tricky fighter at the edge of the envelope, it could backfire quickly!

 

From my understanding, AUX flap circuited breaker was pulled to keep the AUX flaps UP when selecting Full flaps. The AUX flap had no advantage in BFM and only causes extra drag and where more vulnerable to break(G load), but the main flaps could handle the optimum 200-350kts speed regime! When the circuited breaker was pull the wing sweep was disabled!

 

Regards Erikki

Indeed, these kind of intricacies are what makes the aircraft so interesting and such a gem for simmers, as even flying is a very rewarding "work". We will see which of the circuit breakers we model, but as always, we will try to get it right as possible.

Btw a lot of what you mention is already reflected in the model, you can easily fight at 8 to 9 G and overstress it, fly it close to the envelope, but at the same time, you also have to consider possible trade offs.

We also need to be a bit clear about what we are talking here: Flaps already give you the 3°/sec boost as they should in BFM. But what is not realistic is that you deploy them at 400 kts or 300 kts or 275 kts even without receiving any drag penalty, damaging them, etc etc.. At a certain point "that would not be done in real life" because it would have a far greater negative effect than positive for your BFM. That is what we are talking about and that is what is being tweaked at the moment. No one is taking away your ability to use flaps during BFM within a realistic envelope. Go beyond it, you can still use them, but you will have to deal with the consequences.

IM, thanks for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it and look forward to flying the results ... the 14 just gets better and better :)

IM, thanks for taking the time to reply, I appreciate it and look forward to flying the results ... the 14 just gets better and better :)

My pleasure bud, always happy if I can help. Thank you for your kind words!

Indeed, these kind of intricacies are what makes the aircraft so interesting and such a gem for simmers, as even flying is a very rewarding "work". We will see which of the circuit breakers we model, but as always, we will try to get it right as possible.

 

Btw a lot of what you mention is already reflected in the model, you can easily fight at 8 to 9 G and overstress it, fly it close to the envelope, but at the same time, you also have to consider possible trade offs.

I Know, that is why i like the Heatblur F-14 Soooo much!!

Erikki

I hope the flight model and simulation of engine thrust with losses in the air intake and with height will be corrected soon...

It’s very unpleasant to see the first turns on ~11-12g 400-450 knots in the ganzo dogfight without consequences and turns of large angles of attack without a significant loss of speed...

Sometimes it seems that it flies like a UFO with low aerodynamic drag, without g limits, though the weighs more than 20 tons...

Objectively, can a Tomcat overmaneuver an F-15С which has much less weight, wing load, and higher thrust-weight ratio? (with equal pilots)

I understand that everyone wants their loved planes to be the best, but you need to look back at reality if we have a simulator.

I hope the flight model and simulation of engine thrust with losses in the air intake and with height will be corrected soon...

It’s very unpleasant to see the first turns on ~11-12g 400-450 knots in the ganzo dogfight without consequences and turns of large angles of attack without a significant loss of speed...

Sometimes it seems that it flies like a UFO with low aerodynamic drag, without g limits, though the weighs more than 20 tons...

Objectively, can a Tomcat overmaneuver an F-15С which has much less weight, wing load, and higher thrust-weight ratio? (with equal pilots)

I understand that everyone wants their loved planes to be the best, but you need to look back at reality if we have a simulator.

f14 had better turn rate and radius at lower speeds than the f15, thats reality. ps how do you pull 10+ gs in dcs for more than a second or 2 without blacking out?

I hope the flight model and simulation of engine thrust with losses in the air intake and with height will be corrected soon...

It’s very unpleasant to see the first turns on ~11-12g 400-450 knots in the ganzo dogfight without consequences and turns of large angles of attack without a significant loss of speed...

Sometimes it seems that it flies like a UFO with low aerodynamic drag, without g limits, though the weighs more than 20 tons...

Objectively, can a Tomcat overmaneuver an F-15С which has much less weight, wing load, and higher thrust-weight ratio? (with equal pilots)

I understand that everyone wants their loved planes to be the best, but you need to look back at reality if we have a simulator.

Cool bud, the numerous SME's would like to disagree. The 15 has higher wing loading and there is a presentation by a Tomcat pilot on dogfighting the 15, link was in this thread.

I hope the flight model and simulation of engine thrust with losses in the air intake and with height will be corrected soon...

It’s very unpleasant to see the first turns on ~11-12g 400-450 knots in the ganzo dogfight without consequences and turns of large angles of attack without a significant loss of speed...

Sometimes it seems that it flies like a UFO with low aerodynamic drag, without g limits, though the weighs more than 20 tons...

Objectively, can a Tomcat overmaneuver an F-15С which has much less weight, wing load, and higher thrust-weight ratio? (with equal pilots)

I understand that everyone wants their loved planes to be the best, but you need to look back at reality if we have a simulator.

Is that v the AI per chance? I find a 450kt turn at 7g will reduce you shuddering to sub 300 every time!

To think we've wasted all that time discussing AC performance on SEVERAL forums back in the day......... :doh:

Cool bud, the numerous SME's would like to disagree. The 15 has higher wing loading and there is a presentation by a Tomcat pilot on dogfighting the 15, the link was in this thread.

Yes, with empty tanks, the load on the wing F-14 is less, my mistake.

Tomcat's behavior in PvP does seem really strange sometimes. Perhaps it’s a matter of flaps, although when you try to go up to the heights Tomcat, which was first spinning like mad, catches up with you without any problems.

If Tomcat is so deadly in any situation, why was it abandoned? Сould just make his version for the Air Force.

f14 had better turn rate and radius at lower speeds than the f15, thats reality. ps how do you pull 10+ gs in dcs for more than a second or 2 without blacking out?

I don’t know how they do it on the PvP server, maybe they’re cheating...

I just tried it myself now - Tomcat allows you to pull 16-17g without consequences ... :noexpression:

I tested F-14B Tomcat yesterday after installing the latest patch, and still, I was able to use flaps during the BFM environment. and the deployment of flaps was faster than the previous patch. Please, just blow up the flaps when we deploy it over 2G :)

I just tried it myself now - Tomcat allows you to pull 16-17g without consequences ... :noexpression:

mine doesnt! i black out at 9gs in a few seconds

What a guy.

 

https://tucson.com/news/local/top-gun-pilot-forgot-landing-gear/article_0e5210b2-8814-50fa-b8ba-03beaa5ab3ba.html

451: Unavailable due to legal reasons

Sucks to be living in the third world...

451: Unavailable due to legal reasons

 

 

 

Sucks to be living in the third world...

Far OT, but maybe just appreciate that your part of the world at least has some kind of data/privacy protection legislation in place, even if its far from perfect and actual implementation of it is lagging badly. ;)

It says more about the website than your country , that they(the website owners) can‘t be bothered to offer a semi-compliant version of it, something most others manage.

Anyway back to topic. I can‘t pull 16g either without blacking out long before or , if pulling hard instantly instead of gradually , breaking the airframe.

Regards,

Snappy

451: Unavailable due to legal reasons.

Just open with any free proxy. Tl;dr: veteran forgot gear down on landing.

I just tried it myself now - Tomcat allows you to pull 16-17g without consequences ... :noexpression:

Please show us proof. Because that is not at all the case. You may spike once into that, yes. So will other aircraft. But if you haven't blacked out by then or ripped your wings off, you sure won't be able to do that a second time. I'd like to see how you do that, because if indeed you can, then it is a bug.

I just tried it myself now - Tomcat allows you to pull 16-17g without consequences ... :noexpression:

In what ideal world did this happen? I'd like to sing up........

At 16g, first you black out, and if you don't your wings come off, and if.....if somehow they don't, your weapons system is damaged and you can no longer fire any missiles (except uncaged winders) and use the radar properly.....

He probably turned off damage or g effects in his settings. Wings will sure af snap at 14G's.