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[REPORTED]Not accurate starting procedure


grafspee

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Acording to spit manual, spitfire quiped with merlin 66, pilot suposed to move cut off lever forward before priming and cranking is not working in DCS. It is impossible to start DCS Spitfire this way,which simply cancel claim that DCS is accurate simulator game. PLS fix this

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If an ED mod sees this...

 

I would also like to add that I'd like the mixture to be (as an option) set as an axis control.

 

There's also a myriad of other things that can be done to add more simulation to the engines. If the flight model is like it's own area of a simulation, and the upcoming damage model is its own simulation (hopefully), perhaps engines can have their own simulation as well.

 

Though, after reading Nick Grey's post on Hoggit, I suppose I can understand if it's not feasible currently

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You absolutely can start it by the book, that's how I actually make it work.

Pump with the engine primer pump, put the fuel cut off lever to the forward position, use the wobble pump until the whole fuel circuit is pressurized, and quickly use the starter. Once the engine catches, give it a hand by using the wobble pump until it runs normally.

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^ Which is anything BUT by the book, at least not when talking about that book...

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4000117&postcount=5

... and that video for a comparison reference:

 

You're supposed to pressurize the system first (wobble or electric pump, doesn't matter), move the lever second and have enough time to prime the engine crank it, start it and operate primer pump only to make sure it runs smoothly. Can't do it in DCS, as the plane looses pressure immediately after moving the lever.

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^ Which is anything BUT by the book, at least not when talking about that book...

But that's not "the book", that's the very well known "pilot notes" and it mentions at the same time several versions while doesn't focus in anyone of them in particular. Not every engine version works the same.



 

 

... and that video for a comparison reference:

And that's a very well known video either, a video which doesn't follow "the book" at all and is from a time in which they flew and kept the thing airworthy they way they could or just wanted even though original procedures, books or whatever says different. Not to mention they didn't care how it was in the very old times, they just flew in a cheaper and easier way than nowadays.

 

 

 

 

Current module procedures and details comes from a modern well maintained and as close as possible to the original warbird collection and people who fly them. Probably they know better.

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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Although pilot's notes refer to many variants indeed, paragraph 36 very clearly defines procedure for exact "our" config with 66-series engine, electric pump (optionally manual one, although it doesn't make any difference in the sequence order), and late mixture control in the form of a lever.

 

It's all there written in plain English, and it's followed in the video to the letter by the way.

 

Even if current module procedure is based on some modern notes for some reason, if the fuel system was modelled correctly the wartime procedure would and should work too. That's how it is in DCS Mustang for example, where one can follow both old manuals and modern procedures to start the engine just fine. I don't see why DCS Spit should be exception.

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I would say that pilot notes are explaining this matter pretty detailed, especial in priming part where use of high volatile fuel is required for start up. I would say that is more detailed then manual it self because it is focusing on stuff what pilot actual do. Where full manual is launched preaty much once, pilot notes are launched and revisited lots of times.

 

http://zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/spit/SPIT9MANUAL.pdf


Edited by grafspee

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The RAF, like many European air forces experienced a wartime production phenomenon which simply wasn't present in the US industrial complex and would not have been entirely understood in the US, where mass production of large numbers of aircraft and engines managed a relatively tremendous quality control, where so many are being produced, in such an orderly fashion that sub-standard component batches within the production series can be identified and substituted prior to assembly and the final examples maintain a far greater level of performance consistency than any aircraft production in Europe. By comparison every Merlin produced by Rolls Royce had to be put into the air because the backlog on demand at the front lines and the capacity of limited production facilities were so strained, the same story throughout the European powers. Quality control suffered.

Following a tour of the Allison plant by Rolls Royce officials midwar the British Ministry conducted a study of quality control within production batches of brand new, assembled Spitfires and found that performance varied by as much as 50mph speed capability and quite a lot of horsepower difference among Spitfires of identical type and series, produced at the same factory, in the same production batch and the same assembly crews. By comparison about the most variation you'd see between two brand new Mustangs was about 5mph and that's on a very bad day.

This phenomenon was so old hat among European aircraft operators that field maintenance and operating procedures was always far more loose among the RAF and others than would ever be tolerated in the USAAC/F. Aircraft were considered individual personalities with entirely individual requirements, where US procedure mandated that manufacturer procedure must be adhered to without question or challenge at all times, a Mustang was a Mustang, but a Spitfire was a Betty or a Louise or a Joan and they all wore different dresses even if they came from the same mother. One could handle more boost, the next liked low alt better than high alt unlike the other two, the third liked the wings tipped before you fired the guns, yet they were made alongside each other and for all intents and purposes, identical aircraft and equipment fit. This is punctuated by correspondence by Allison AC to foreign operators of their engines under lend lease, strictly instructing them to please stop ignoring Allison operational guidelines and substituting them with their own field operational procedures, such as boost regulator adjustments well beyond manufacturer guidelines. You could literally have two Spits built right next to each other and one pilot complains that it won't climb past 19,000ft and the crew chief jump in the other and take it up to 22,000 and then the rest of the squadron would start quoting all their own different alt top outs. Welcome to the wartime RAF, where the MkIX wasn't even airworthy under British regulation for its first year of production and in fact wasn't until it started using MkVIII parts in late war production, everything but the fuel tankage.

Then we fast forward to modern warbird restoration operators and it's an entirely different kettle of fish, where we're not desperate to save the nation from inevitable doom with the very last strands of operational capacity every day of the week and we actually want to preserve the aircraft flown in some reasonable manner, for one thing care is taken that modern operating procedures do not overly strain the rather expensive museum piece. And what you have is a far more standardized operational guideline not unlike something US industry is more used to, since Mexico was never really a military threat.

You can dredge up wartime RAF pilot/crew guidelines which, whilst historical aren't exactly mandate, they're far more circumstantial.

 

Just a thought for another take on the matter.

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HUwZwAJovoI

Check 0:28

Even modern spits are firing with mixture control full forward before cranking.

You can clearly see thet mixture lever is moved forward before priming and cranking in this plane.

He follow pilot notes.

If you do exactly the same in dcs spit you will not fire up engine.

For me it looks like copy paste from p-51 code.


Edited by grafspee

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... and that video for a comparison reference:

 

There's an error in the video at 2:39.

 

The narrator says "propeller contin's speed control fully forward" while the video shows a hand moving the mixture control fully forward (red handle). One can see that the actual "propeller contin speed" (rpm) is already fully forward. Listen and turn on subtitles.

 

Subtitles are auto generated, therefore it comes out as:

"better contin speed control fully forward idle cutoff checked fully aft"
where google auto generated "better contin" when he said "propeller continuous speed control fully forward".

 

Did a camera guy move mixture while filming not knowing what he was doing? Rpm fully forward is what makes sense and what we do in DCS.


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There's an error in the video at 2:39.

 

The narrator says "propeller contin speed control fully forward" while the video shows a hand moving the mixture control fully forward (red handle). One can see that the actual "propeller contin speed" (rpm) is already fully forward. Listen and turn on subtitles.

 

Subtitles are auto generated, therefore it comes out as:

where google auto generated "better contin" when he said "propeller continuous".

 

Did a camera guy move it not knowing what he was doing?

 

Rpm fully forward is what makes sense and what we do in DCS.

 

This video is a mess mixing pre-startup check list with start up procedure. It is garbage. One who edited this video had no idea what is goining on in this plane.

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  • 5 weeks later...
Yup, got the pilot's notes here, for Merlin 66 engines the idle cut-off control goes forward to RUN before priming so the engine should start this way- which it doesn't

 

Now this is going to mess me up when they fix it, as I have learned from here...

(why is this box so large? )

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This section of the start-up is the one with the largest difference between DCS and the actual pilot's notes (steps iii to viii in the notes). The idle cut-off in particular is used incorrectly in a few places in DCS

 

Pilot's notes:

Wobble pump (or main tank booster pump on for) 30 seconds

*Idle cut-off to run*

Prime engine

Ignition switches on

Starter and booster-coil on

Release starter when engine fires

Booster-coil on (and prime if necessary) until engine runs smoothly

Adjust throttle for 1000-1200 rpm

Main tanks booster ON

 

DCS flight manual:

Prime engine

Wobble pump til warning light off

Ignition switches on

Starter and booster-coil on

*Idle cut-off forward to run*

Release starter and booster-coil when engine starts to run

*Idle cut-off rearmost position*

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This section of the start-up is the one with the largest difference between DCS and the actual pilot's notes (steps iii to viii in the notes). The idle cut-off in particular is used incorrectly in a few places in DCS

 

Pilot's notes:

Wobble pump (or main tank booster pump on for) 30 seconds

*Idle cut-off to run*

Prime engine

Ignition switches on

Starter and booster-coil on

Release starter when engine fires

Booster-coil on (and prime if necessary) until engine runs smoothly

Adjust throttle for 1000-1200 rpm

Main tanks booster ON

 

DCS flight manual:

Prime engine

Wobble pump til warning light off

Ignition switches on

Starter and booster-coil on

*Idle cut-off forward to run*

Release starter and booster-coil when engine starts to run

*Idle cut-off rearmost position*

 

This needs to be fixed.

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I hope it is too, maybe the development of the Mosquito makes this a really convenient time to check the operation of British warbirds in the game against the air ministry's pilot's notes.

 

I'd be surprised if it was fixed any time soon. Issues like this seems to take a very back seat.

 

It is something that has always bothered me because every aircraft I fly (albeit with smaller engines) can be started with the mixture in the rich position. Neither the spit or the mustang will even splutter if the mixture is set to rich.

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I'd be surprised if it was fixed any time soon. Issues like this seems to take a very back seat.

 

It is something that has always bothered me because every aircraft I fly (albeit with smaller engines) can be started with the mixture in the rich position. Neither the spit or the mustang will even splutter if the mixture is set to rich.

 

This is not quite true about p-51, there you are cranking engine with fuel booster on, so if you put mixture lever to run position fuel from will be introduced in to intake and this fuel will flow out of plane on the ground.

Same would happen with spitfire but you are cranking spit with fuel booster off, so no pressure in fuel system until engine starts rotating, with booster on, fuel would flow out of plane on the ground as in p-51

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This is not quite true about p-51, there you are cranking engine with fuel booster on, so if you put mixture lever to run position fuel from will be introduced in to intake and this fuel will flow out of plane on the ground.

Same would happen with spitfire but you are cranking spit with fuel booster off, so no pressure in fuel system until engine starts rotating, with booster on, fuel would flow out of plane on the ground as in p-51

 

Ah interesting. I do get confused by that as well as when the fuel pump is turned on then off the pressure in the 51 goes to 0. Probably should hold it

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Ah interesting. I do get confused by that as well as when the fuel pump is turned on then off the pressure in the 51 goes to 0. Probably should hold it

 

It depends, Spitfire engine and p-51 engine are very very close to each other but rest of the plane like fuel tanks fuel pumps connections houses, valves etc are quite different, but i think fuel pressure will drop when fuel pump is off, how fast that is good question.

Often we can find in fuel system something like fuel pressure accumulator it helps stabilize fuel pressure in system.


Edited by grafspee

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

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