Jump to content

[NO BUG]F-5E pilot does not require oxygen


cosmicdoubloon

Recommended Posts

Per the title, the F-5E currently does not require the pilot to turn on his oxygen supply for high altitude work. This bug is present regardless of hot start, cold start and air start. In hot/air start you start with oxygen on but if you turn it off the pilot never blacks out. If a cold start you never need to turn it on. Track attached.

F5 o2 bug.trk

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice bit of bug reporting.

 

You should teach the complainers on the Viper and Bug threads how it's done. They just whine (alot) and then when asked for a track file they throw a fit. I suspect they don't know how to find the track files let alone upload them...

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

i7 10700K OC 5.1GHZ / 500GB SSD & 1TB M:2 & 4TB HDD / MSI Gaming MB / GTX 1080 / 32GB RAM / Win 10 / TrackIR 4 Pro / CH Pedals / TM Warthog

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi guys, someone needs to help me here because I am not seeing a bug...

 

The F5 is a pressurized aircraft. If you carefully watch the OP’s track, when he levels at FL300 you can verify his cabin altitude is only 11,000 feet. This is well within normal parameters according to the pressurization schedule provided in 1F-5E-1. There is no physical need for a healthy, fit individual (ie most fighter pilots) to be on oxygen at 11,000 feet, and in fact depending on the type of operation the FAA might not even require a pilot to be using supplemental oxygen.

 

To then verify the system is working as designed, take control of the OP’s track at FL300, verify the O2 supply is still off, and dump the cabin. The cabin altitude will rapidly rise to aircraft altitude and shortly thereafter symptoms of hypoxic hypoxia set in. Turn on the O2 and pilot function is immediately restored.

 

Unless you are talking about the supply lever/diluter lever interlock which from what I can tell isn’t modeled (and I don’t think that is what the OP is getting at) I don’t see a bug here. There is no reason to need supplemental O2 at 11,000 feet.

Multiplayer as Variable

 

Asus Z97-A - I7 4790K - 32 GB HyperX - EVGA GTX 1080 Ti - Corsair 750i PSU

 

TM Warthog HOTAS - TM Cougar MFDs - CH Pedals - TrackIR 5 - Samsung RU8000 55”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
Hi guys, someone needs to help me here because I am not seeing a bug...

 

The F5 is a pressurized aircraft. If you carefully watch the OP’s track, when he levels at FL300 you can verify his cabin altitude is only 11,000 feet. This is well within normal parameters according to the pressurization schedule provided in 1F-5E-1. There is no physical need for a healthy, fit individual (ie most fighter pilots) to be on oxygen at 11,000 feet, and in fact depending on the type of operation the FAA might not even require a pilot to be using supplemental oxygen.

 

To then verify the system is working as designed, take control of the OP’s track at FL300, verify the O2 supply is still off, and dump the cabin. The cabin altitude will rapidly rise to aircraft altitude and shortly thereafter symptoms of hypoxic hypoxia set in. Turn on the O2 and pilot function is immediately restored.

 

Unless you are talking about the supply lever/diluter lever interlock which from what I can tell isn’t modeled (and I don’t think that is what the OP is getting at) I don’t see a bug here. There is no reason to need supplemental O2 at 11,000 feet.

 

Thanks for the reply,

 

I have asked the devs as soon as I have some info I will let you all know, I wanted to confirm the pressurised cabin.

 

Edit:

 

No Bug, cabin is pressurised, and switching the guarded cabin press switch will allow for hypoxia.

 

thanks


Edited by BIGNEWY

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
So I do not have to switch oxigen on like in a-10c? It needs to be on only if canopy Is jettisoned? I ask just to simulate correctly what pilots do...

 

Hi, the cabin is pressurised,

 

if you switch the guarded cabin pressure switch and the oxygen switch is off you will loose consciousness.

 

If you jettison the canopy the cabin is no longer pressurised, this will also lead to hypoxia.

 

this is correct

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
thanks for the investigation and followup Bignewy, and thanks for the informative post tom_19d. It hadn't occurred to me to check if the F-5E has a pressurised cabin and the detail provided by you two absolutely makes sense. Glad it got checked out regardless!

 

No problem, never hurts to ask, and I learned something new also :)

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

From my experience as a cabin crew (just for the general knowledge....)

 

Hypoxia only occurs when aircraft is not pressurised above 10k feet. This is why in case of decompression the aircraft has to reach 10k feet as soon as possible. Below such altitude, you don't need any oxygen masks

 

Oxygen settings should be

NORM is when you breath normal air

100% you breath 100% oxygen "on demand" (like scuba divers)

EMER you get a powerful flow of 100% oxygen, regardless if you are breathing or not

| A-10C | MiG-21bis | Hawk T1.A | L-39 Albatros | F-5E | Ka-50 | Mi-8 | NTTR | CA | SU27 | M2000C | F-86F | AV-8B | F/A-18C | Mig 15 | Mig 19|

Specs

 

Intel i7-9700k

msi GTX 2060 Gaming Z

msi Z390 Gaming PLUS

16gb RAM

Hotas Warthog

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there's still something funky going on here and would request another look is taken. I've attached a second track where I am at 55,000ft with a cabin pressure of 20,000ft. I turn off the oxygen again and still do not experience hypoxia without dumping the cabin pressure. I also climb to 60,000ft with a cabin pressure of 22k ft with still no effect.

 

Now I'm not IRL pilot but I'm fairly sure even in a pressurised cockpit if the cabin pressure is 21k+ feet I think you'd need to be on supplemental oxygen at that point.

 

Could you have another look Bignewy?

F5 o2 bug test 2.trk

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I thought in DCS you are always wearing your mask.

you cannot remove it.

 

so even in a pressurised aircraft you need to turn on the oxygen. or you will pass out because of the mask.

 

im sure I saw a thread about this somewhere else..

My Rig: AM5 7950X, 32GB DDR5 6000, M2 SSD, EVGA 1080 Superclocked, Warthog Throttle and Stick, MFG Crosswinds, Oculus Rift.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team

Hi, thanks for the track.

 

From what I have been told this is correct.

 

Even after shutting off the flow there is still oxygen in the cabin, only dumping the cabin pressure will create hypoxia and blackout.

 

I will try to ask the dev again, thanks

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
I thought in DCS you are always wearing your mask.

you cannot remove it.

 

so even in a pressurised aircraft you need to turn on the oxygen. or you will pass out because of the mask.

 

im sure I saw a thread about this somewhere else..

 

With most aircraft in DCS yes, this is correct. but with the F-5E it also has a pressurised cabin which is modelled.

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Gents,

 

Thanks for a good discussion and BigNewy thanks for some great feedback and moderating.

 

I think I can shed a little more light on two of the later questions brought up and hopefully I won't muddy the waters too much doing so.

 

Now I'm not IRL pilot but I'm fairly sure even in a pressurised cockpit if the cabin pressure is 21k+ feet I think you'd need to be on supplemental oxygen at that point.

 

Full disclosure, I am away from my rig on business so I can't watch the track to see how long you waited, but I will say this; You will need to be on 02 with a cabin alt of 21,000 feet, but it might take longer to become perilous than you expect. Time of Useful Consciousness (TUC) is defined by the FAA as the time between the interruption of oxygen OR exposure to an oxygen poor environment until the pilot is no longer capable of taking corrective or protective action. This doesn't necessarily means unconsciousness, but instead it generally manifests as a pilot who is still conscious and might even realize there is a problem, but mentally can't fully grasp the situation or physically can't take the actions needed to address the hypoxia. TUC obviously is highly dependant on physical condition, but the FAA shows general time ranges as a function of altitude and either a slow or rapid decompression.

 

In the case you are discussing, that would be considered a slow decompression (just turning off 02 without dumping the cabin). In such a case, TUC at 18,000 feet is 20-30 minutes, TUC at 22,000 feet is 10 minutes. FAA AC covering this topic is here.

 

Like I said, I wasn't able to watch your track, but if no symptoms of hypoxia are present after 10 minutes at a cabin alt of 22,000, that would indicate a problem. At that point, however, I don't know if that is a problem with the F5 or DCS in general; what I mean is that the systems of the F5 seem to be working correctly, but reactions to hypoxia could be coded into DCS itself, not the module. That is pure speculation on my part though.

 

I thought in DCS you are always wearing your mask.

you cannot remove it.

 

so even in a pressurised aircraft you need to turn on the oxygen. or you will pass out because of the mask.

 

im sure I saw a thread about this somewhere else..

 

I mentioned this in passing in post #5 of this thread. There is indeed an interlock between the supply lever and the diluter lever on the oxygen regulator; if the supply lever is placed to OFF, the diluter lever trips to 100%. In practice, this means a pilot with his mask on can't forget to turn the supply lever on; he wouldn't pass out as with hypoxia, he would literally be physically prevented from inhaling at all (his mask is hooked only to a closed line).

 

As Quadg noted, our pilot in DCS always has the mask on. For this reason, I believe BST (now ED) decided not to implement this particular feature, as it would really serve no purpose other than making the supply lever into a suicide switch (or just killing off players who spawn too slowly into a cold start multiplayer match). No conscious person would be calmly suffocated by a non-flowing mask. They would either immediatly rip the mask/helmet combination off their head by pure instinct (or perhaps perish in the attempt if they are inept) but in no case would they sit calmly during the affair.

 

FOLLOW UP: Finally back home and able to do some testing. Took an F5 up to FL400. Cabin indicated ~FL180. Turned off the O2 at the mask regulator and kept the aircraft between FL400 and 430. Cabin altitude held between FL180 and 200. After 20 minutes, double vision of my gun pipper set in. Turning on the O2 regulator immediately restored pilot vision. At this point I have no doubt that both the F5's systems and pilot reaction to hypoxic hypoxia are modeled to a most reasonable standard.


Edited by tom_19d
Follow up marked

Multiplayer as Variable

 

Asus Z97-A - I7 4790K - 32 GB HyperX - EVGA GTX 1080 Ti - Corsair 750i PSU

 

TM Warthog HOTAS - TM Cougar MFDs - CH Pedals - TrackIR 5 - Samsung RU8000 55”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...