[INVESTIGATING] Ground Physics Bug?

After recognizing a strange ground behavior in the 109 and also reading a topic on the forums about it I made a short video to demonstrate.

Somehow it seems that the tires lost their friction - or too much of it.

You can basically drift on the ground (concrete) with the 109 now and it is very hard to dip a wing onto the ground in extreme conditions.

Haven´t tried it "offroad".

This was tested with the latest patch and with unlocked tailwheel - Beta (2.5.2.20143)

It was the instant action "Take-Off" - sorry I have no .trk file of it.

Can someone try to recreate and confirm if this is a bug or not?

Thanks in advance!

confirm the behaviour. no doubt there is something wrong now

After recognizing a strange ground behavior in the 109 and also reading a topic on the forums about it I made a short video to demonstrate.

Somehow it seems that the tires lost their friction - or too much of it.

You can basically drift on the ground (concrete) with the 109 now and it is very hard to dip a wing onto the ground in extreme conditions.

 

Haven´t tried it "offroad".

 

 

 

This was tested with the latest patch and with unlocked tailwheel - Beta (2.5.2.20143)

It was the instant action "Take-Off" - sorry I have no .trk file of it.

 

 

Can someone try to recreate and confirm if this is a bug or not?

Thanks in advance!

 

No problems here, try this settings:

["aileronTrim"] = -30,

["assistance"] = 0,

["autoRudder"] = false,

["cameraOrigin"] = 1,

["rudderTrim"] = -10,

No problems here, try this settings:

 

["aileronTrim"] = -30,

["assistance"] = 0,

["autoRudder"] = false,

["cameraOrigin"] = 1,

["rudderTrim"] = -10,

I think it´s not about a problem with take off it´s about the ground behaviour of the 109. Same effect here, also the tailwheel when locked still handles like it´s not locked.

Making it easier is one thing but you can basically drift now .. this can't be meant to be right?

Doesn't wont to be sound wrong? But we still Flying DCS because we don't like easy? 109 was fear to kill his Pilots for Take off? it feels now can not describe it like my Cessna is more dangerous then this to take off and land on Grass? we make now in DCS simplification because some one can not take off with this? can I get the old handling back in a special Option Menue? It is a learning Curve like a Real Aircraft there is no feeling on the Ground you need simple to know when to kick the Ruder? Learning curve after some days you don't even to lock the Tail Wheel?

As you speed up the aircraft gets lighter on the gear, it's not that wild to believe it would slide easier. But most real 109 pilots probably aren't going to try this out for you ;)

With all due respect Sith, while I don't disagree with that reasoning if it's going fast, the video shows the aircraft doing a large slide at around ~taxi speed at 0:15->0:20.

Does that seem right to you?

[NO BUG]???

who tested this new ground behaviour? who gave permission that this is a true to life behaviour? isnt DCS supposed to be a simulation as close as possible to the real deal?

before dcs was shining compared to all other sims in this regard...and now puts itself on the last place in terms of believable behaviour...

we can land the thing now with a full sideslip without getting into trouble...

seriously no bug? i cant believe that the devs gave permission to this ground behaviour...dcs just lost lots of appeal for me with that decision, but worse also lots of its credibilty.

Take Video this morning, 109 don't even make ground loop any more with unlocked Tailwheel..

After we live in the First 21 Century you can even watch this events on Youtube...

When you touch down a Plane like this on concrete Runway that was your last Landing...

AS I explained above, the ground handling has been reworked as it was TOO easy to scrap a wing tip, Nick Grey stated that you lose a lot not having the sensation in your backside on things like take off and landing. Because of this lack of feeling for the aircraft, it was deemed to tweak it to be more forgiving, and therefore more realistic for what a real pilot would be doing and feeling in the seat.

 

If you have a situation during takeoff or landing, a REAL situation that you feel is not right at all, supply a track and I will report it, otherwise, I cant do much with a video of someone sliding the aircraft around unrealistically. But hurling insults at ED's credibility or comparing it to other sims wont get you anywhere.

 

Remember Mr Grey has had experience in all sorts of WWII aircraft, he is making changes and adjustments based on that experience. Mistakes can be made of course, but I need to see evidence of it in real situations.

before this change, the groundphysics on concrete runways, or the "dirt runways" in normandy where very plausible, and tbh, not hard at all to master with a little practice...the only situation where i would agree that it was a little too easy to scratch a wing on the ground was when trying to attempt a field landing in the grass somewhere outside of the airfields without locking the tailwheel...as even in these grass fields it was very easy to land with the tailwheel locked.

the change in physics that happened now, is extreme, and tbh i think your argument about "realistic landings" is not really valid, as pilots do make mistakes and there is bad piloting and human error which is THE KILLER number one in aviation...and also this should be simulated in a flight simulator that strives to be as close to real life as possible and not only perfect landings...

people do kick the wrong rudder also in real life, ballony, flare too early or not at all, touch down in a slipped attitude and so on...there was a reason why so many 109pilots died on takeoff and landings...MAD is correct when he says that its harder to take off or land a cessna in real life now than the 109 in dcs...

the videos shown here, where on purpose bad piloting is used to show the lack of friction, are perfectly fine to show that there is a problem in dcs now imo.

yes, we are lacking the feeling of acceleration on our pcs, but we went from one extreme(which wasnt extreme at all actually) to the other, and this, doesnt make it more realsitc at all...sorry.

just make a "realistic" landing in the 109 now, try to stay straight, and hit the brakes..you will notice that u begin to drift sideways parrallel to the runway to either side without any crosswind conditions...even at very slow speeds. this is just plain wrong.

but u dont even have to attempt a landing to see that there is something very scetchy now. just taxi and make some turns on the ground at normal taxi speeds. it slides so easy on the ground, that its just really obvious that something is not right.

nobody is insulting ED...its just my honest opinion, that the current behaviour is not credible/believable anymore. thats not an insult at all.

Just came across this thread and of course I had to immediately test it (with the TF-51)

I can confirm that ground handling is now definitely much more realistic.

Very nice and a highly appreciated improvement:)

Seeing mad-mm first video above, I think it has been tipped too much toward stability. It's not a completely out of enveloppe landing, so it's not testing something that would never happen irl (like trying to land backward woukd be :) ) and there I would expect some more consistent behavior, and at least wing tip, if not worse. This is just a purposefully very bad landing, the kind of which a beginner should learn to not repeat.

I'm not quite sure tweaking physics so much out of reality to compensate for lack of feedback and simulate pilot behavior is a good solution. Though I don't have a solution to Mr Grey problem, I don't like this way of solving it

AS I explained above, the ground handling has been reworked as it was TOO easy to scrap a wing tip, Nick Grey stated that you lose a lot not having the sensation in your backside on things like take off and landing. Because of this lack of feeling for the aircraft, it was deemed to tweak it to be more forgiving, and therefore more realistic for what a real pilot would be doing and feeling in the seat.

I for one, find that this is a very welcome adjustment and approach, and that it makes a lot of sense. Can always argue it needs fine tuning, and might get it, who knows.

And for the record. I had a go in the Spitfire last night, and during landing I tipped the wing. Was before I had read about this, and its been a while since I flew the Spitfire. So isnt like this has become some bulletproof lateral stability thing.

+1 Never bent so many landing gears and wingtips on the TF-51 prior to doing these tests. :lol:

I for one, find that this is a very welcome adjustment and approach, and that it makes a lot of sense. Can always argue it needs fine tuning, and might get it, who knows.

And for the record. I had a go in the Spitfire last night, and during landing I tipped the wing. Was before I had read about this, and its been a while since I flew the Spitfire. So isnt like this has become some bulletproof lateral stability thing.

Yes for me such thing is about the Wrong Way, we have already arcade Options with rudder Help and easy Flight model...

As Flight Student when you take off the First Time you have exact now clue what to do, and you get teached also by Muscle Memory and technical Things after what you have to look out...after I using a FFB Stick in absence to the But Feeling, what you have to teach your self in a Simulation there is not much missing...

Back to the 109, the Plane have this narrow undercarriage formed in a V and a V in his Longitudinal Axis, when you read German Pilots memories when they not exact Seattle down the Plane on both Main Gears the 109 immediately breaks out to one Side, where the Gear get Friction there was no Slipping around the Runway...

Looks the 109 FM needs to be adapted for the new friction model.

After I fly only from time to time Spit, I can hammer know perfectly fine the Spitfire also sideways in the Ground what was wrong with the Friction before this change?

When you ask me but then are the Dampers are to weak on the Roll out, or the Momentum produced by the Wings are do big...

It still requires rudder, it just doesnt tip as easy, I dont think its so simple now. The tipping of the aircraft just isnt as crazy.

Under which circumstances does it require rudder now?

Everything is doable with brakes only. Even take-off with unlocked tailwheel ...

Auto-Rudder: 0

TO Assistance: 0

Rudder-Trim: 0

Aileron-Trim: 0

Take Video this morning, 109 don't even make ground loop any more with unlocked Tailwheel..

After we live in the First 21 Century you can even watch this events on Youtube...

When you touch down a Plane like this on concrete Runway that was your last Landing...

 

 

 

i concur with all the folks finding this update not realistic.

Maybe its not a bug in the common sence but it sure feels like one^^

This is obviously way off guys and i hope theres gonna be changes to it. the groundhandling was alot better before, ALOT.

with luv, rog

according to Volker Bau, THE BOSS, when its about current 109 pilots, 1/3rd of rudder input is needed until the tail raises, and almost full to full rudder input during the rise of the tailwheel . once it settles on the main gear, different rudder inputs are necessary to balance the bird until it lifts.

what we have now is not even close to this.