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F-14 low speed prowess vs Other Aircraft


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I'd rather fly them then read the charts, but alas! We don't have a proper F-14 simulator. Besides.....it can be fun doing all these paper simulations. BTW..... didn't it occur to someone to send those math guys over at f16 net to actually send them the lift/alpha charts? I mean....it's like they are even that hard to find......

 

I doubt it will help, it's all lies in their opinion :megalol:

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More interesting would be comparisons to the Mig29 and Su-27, which is what you're going to be facing in multiplayer and SP missions.

 

I fully agree! Any ideas where i can get my hands on some 29/27 performance manuals with detailed excess power diagrams?

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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All these comparisons to the F-16 are amusing, mostly because they're utterly moot while we don't have a pilotable one in DCS.

 

More interesting would be comparisons to the Mig29 and Su-27, which is what you're going to be facing in multiplayer and SP missions.

 

I thought I read somewhere that the -29 was more maneuverable by a couple degrees per second. The glaring problem I can think of when fighting it is that you could just simply drag it from its base, and let it run out of fuel.

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In ITR I can imagine that is true yes, however in STR I believe the F-16 has got a slight edge over the MiG-29. Not sure about it though as I don't have any MiG-29 graphs on me atm, but that's what I recall.

 

I think the end result is that the slight advantage of the MiG-29 in turning is more than offset by its lack of range, deficiency in armament, and lower quality avionics when compared to the F-16. The benefits of the -29 seem to be that it could pop up out of damn near anywhere due to its rough field abilities, and it is at around parity when it comes to BVR combat (which can be argued higher or lower).

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I'll just add that I said platform, not the missile alone.

 

If we talk about a (much) more modern MiG we'll also be talking about a heavier MiG, so now the turn advantages will probably start to fade.

 

There are a billion arguments on this, boiling down to who is telling the truth about their missiles' capabilities, and in which direction are they lying.

 

I think you're right, though.

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Sorry, a couple degrees a second over the F-16.

 

Based on STR alone (not nearly good enough metric IMO as an isolated piece of data), at 10000ft, similar fuel fractions and a light load of AAM's (2 heaters or clean), these 2 are essentially the same. The 29 has about 1/2 degree advantage bellow 250KIAS and the F-16C above 250KIAS, but nothing dramatic to make it a decisive call. SA and pilot training would probably decide this one in WVR. Unless we factor in high off bore shots?

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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A bit of a necro here, but i had some free time this weekend to experiment on the F-14 flight model characteristics. I tried estimating the difference between a lift curve for a fixed wing sweep angle (or for wings that start sweeping in the transonic range) VS the standard channel one automated program. I came up with something like this. Any help and verification (or for that matter rebuttal) would be most welcome.

 

The implications would be as following (two bad news for the future Turkey drivers that would like to explore the edge of the high speed envelope):

-first; even at sea level, as the wings move back at relatively high air speeds, you lose significant amounts of lift. As you move up, the situation only becomes worse, as your air speed corresponds to ever higher mach numbers (you are essentially a delta at 300 knots if you fly high enough).

- second; if (when) you enter your turn fast enough, you generate so much G, your wings will sweep forward slower then you are able to bleed your air speed. So if you enter the merge fast enough, you can still end up a delta even if your wing sweep programmer is saying you should be at 45 degree or something. Depending on altitude the difference could be as little as initiating a turn at 450 VS at 500 KIAS.

 

Well.....that's it for now. Hope you find this amusing. Again, any input is welcome. My math is a bit shaky. Dalan out! :captain:

1238893957_F-14CLmaxVSPs.jpg.1f2439059630a5e780c62d987e04ef5a.jpg

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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A bit of a necro here, but i had some free time this weekend to experiment on the F-14 flight model characteristics. I tried estimating the difference between a lift curve for a fixed wing sweep angle (or for wings that start sweeping in the transonic range) VS the standard channel one automated program. I came up with something like this. Any help and verification (or for that matter rebuttal) would be most welcome.

 

The implications would be as following (two bad news for the future Turkey drivers that would like to explore the edge of the high speed envelope):

-first; even at sea level, as the wings move back at relatively high air speeds, you lose significant amounts of lift. As you move up, the situation only becomes worse, as your air speed corresponds to ever higher mach numbers (you are essentially a delta at 300 knots if you fly high enough).

- second; if (when) you enter your turn fast enough, you generate so much G, your wings will sweep forward slower then you are able to bleed your air speed. So if you enter the merge fast enough, you can still end up a delta even if your wing sweep programmer is saying you should be at 45 degree or something. Depending on altitude the difference could be as little as initiating a turn at 450 VS at 500 KIAS.

 

Well.....that's it for now. Hope you find this amusing. Again, any input is welcome. My math is a bit shaky. Dalan out! :captain:

 

Perhaps using the manual override might possibly be considered a viable workaround? You know, like how the mach sweep computer SAYS your wings should be at a certain sweep angle relative to your airspeed...except they aren't because you're making that decision instead of the airplane?

 

Of course, I'm a long way from being an expert on the Tomcat, so I haven't the slightest idea if that would buy you any kind of advantage.

Can't pretend fly as well as you can.

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Perhaps using the manual override might possibly be considered a viable workaround? You know, like how the mach sweep computer SAYS your wings should be at a certain sweep angle relative to your airspeed...except they aren't because you're making that decision instead of the airplane?

 

Of course, I'm a long way from being an expert on the Tomcat, so I haven't the slightest idea if that would buy you any kind of advantage.

 

Any good pilot would leave the wings alone and let the computer do its thing.

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Perhaps using the manual override might possibly be considered a viable workaround? You know, like how the mach sweep computer SAYS your wings should be at a certain sweep angle relative to your airspeed...except they aren't because you're making that decision instead of the airplane?

 

Of course, I'm a long way from being an expert on the Tomcat, so I haven't the slightest idea if that would buy you any kind of advantage.

 

Any good pilot would leave the wings alone and let the computer do its thing.

 

Possibly, i don't know. Fixing the wings in the forward most sweep angle would surely impact the sustained turning ability of the craft, as well as the acceleration. But there might be other factors we may need to consider, such as structural issues :dunno:

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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Possibly, i don't know. Fixing the wings in the forward most sweep angle would surely impact the sustained turning ability of the craft, as well as the acceleration. But there might be other factors we may need to consider, such as structural issues :dunno:

From everything I have read, they left them alone. Override was for emergencies. The only thing I can think where it might help is to try and confuse opposing aircraft of your true energy state, which will change based on the wing profile, so how effective it would be is beyond my paltry knowledge. Of course, this being a video game, there is no telling if an advantage will be seen as peculiarities seem to crop up differing from the real world and million dollar airframes are not at risk.

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he only thing I can think where it might help is to try and confuse opposing aircraft of your true energy state

 

I read stories about a real Tomcat pilot using this trick in DACT: Joe "Hoser" Satrapa :thumbup:

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Possibly, i don't know. Fixing the wings in the forward most sweep angle would surely impact the sustained turning ability of the craft, as well as the acceleration. But there might be other factors we may need to consider, such as structural issues :dunno:

 

The F-14 can change speed rapidly and wing sweep is a part of that. Its the reason the F-111 was faster than the F-4 with lessor engines. While oddities in the sim might occur, its likely that there will not be a net benefit to interrupting the auto wing sweep. One factor may be increased, but only for a moment and probably at the detriment of another factor that overall would decrease effectivness.

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Of course, this being a video game, there is no telling if an advantage will be seen as peculiarities seem to crop up differing from the real world and million dollar airframes are not at risk.

This the question that I truly want the answer to.

 

Realistic though it may be, it is still a simulation, and as such, can never be a total mimicry of the real thing. What a real F-14 pilot had to contend with in the way of his aircraft's limitations may not necessarily apply to us.

 

 

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This all despite the fact that Tom's wings move forward faster and sweep slower- and including the body lift? If you're at fighting weight and have a clean or Sparrow belly with no tanks you shouldn't be losing lift as the body makes up for it- AFAIK the body generates the majority of the left when the wings are swept- so the actual wings function best unswept, I'm sure you bleed quick while swept but man you have insane pitch rates.

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This all despite the fact that Tom's wings move forward faster and sweep slower- and including the body lift? If you're at fighting weight and have a clean or Sparrow belly with no tanks you shouldn't be losing lift as the body makes up for it- AFAIK the body generates the majority of the left when the wings are swept- so the actual wings function best unswept, I'm sure you bleed quick while swept but man you have insane pitch rates.

 

Look up in the manual. Just above the paragraph that states the normal wing sweep rate, there is also one that states that as the aircraft experiences more g's the wing sweep mechanism slowly becomes less efficient and can eventually stall completely. For the life of me i couldn't find any published material on how much does g-load effect the sweep rate, but i'm assuming that it is relatively unhindered during "normal" flight regime (say up to 7-7.5 g's), it starts to slow down above that and completely stops by 9-10g. This is all my best guess though, that is why i asked for confirmation or negation by someone that might know better.

 

As for the total lift, the actual lifting area of the fuselage is always the same, only it's relative percentage of the total lift changes as the lifting area of the wings decreases when they sweep back. But this is not all there is. Wing aspect changes as well, and this plays an even greater role.

Modules: FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, F-14A, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, MiG-15, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map, Marianas map, Syria Map, Super Carrier, Sinai map, Mosquito, P-51, AH-64 Apache

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I'm sure you bleed quick while swept but man you have insane pitch rates.

 

True, but for how long? My experiences with delta wings in the past have made me wince in that regard.

 

As I said before, I'm no Tomcat professional, but STR was purported to be the F-14's forte due to the massive lifting surface(s) it possessed. If I was in the front seat of an F-14 and knew that I was about to tangle with someone, I would want every advantage my mount could give me. I just don't see that being possible at full wing sweep, hence the reason I questioned whether or not it would be a sound idea to override the CADC and force the wings to remain at 20 degrees.

 

As always, if I'm wrong about something then, Tomcat experts, please school me. It's at least half of the reason I visit this forum.

Can't pretend fly as well as you can.

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