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Why am I finding it so hard to fly the F5E?


jasonbirder

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I'll freely admit the answer is probably..."its hard...and you're a DCS noob"

But more seriously, purchased the F5E Module in the Christmas Sale as a sort of "lead-in" trainer to the more advanced Combat Aircraft I want to fly...(I already have the A10C and the AV8B mouldering little used on my hard-drive)

 

 

I thought the F5 with its "steam instruments" and lack of FBW/FLCS would instill some good basics/foundations to set me up for the more "systems" based flying of contemporary Aircraft...

 

 

Anyway, long story short - all i'm currently doing is firing up Free-Flight and trying to trim for level flightconstant speed at different speeds and altitudes...and also trying to sit in formation with the "Lead" Aircraft in the scenario...

 

 

Trimming for level flight seems very difficult...not helped by the "button" type trim...doesn't seem to be a way of mapping it to a slider or dial axis for analogue trim control...so a click up gives a climb...a click down gives a descent (rinse and report in increments) likewise the throttle lag makes a steady speed or position in formation very hard to attain...oh and the classic "use your leads wings as a horizon" use rudder for lateral movements seems tough becuase easing off the rudder always seems to cause the nose to "baloon" back to its original position...

 

 

I know we're talking real basic flight...but any tips for smooth co-ordinated flight and formations in this deceptively awkward little plain...

 

 

I've not even moved onto turns yet!

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Trimming takes a bit of practice and at the risk of teaching you how to suck eggs, use trim to get a sensible climb or descent rate and use throttle to tidy up the rough edges to achieve level flight.

 

Have you tried adding a little dead zone and curve to your stick and rudder axis? This should help with formation difficulties; with a bit of speed the F-5 becomes super twitchy, the axis curve should help you keep it smooth.

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Might want to try the Non-Linear control option too, many swear to it.

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Maybe you are not enabling the Yaw & Pitch Dampers prior to take off?

 

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Hi

 

I'm absolutely no expert, but i've found that smoothening the joystick curve did help a lot, at least for me.

Also, I've discovered AFTER some time, that the F-5 have a yaw and pitch damper that have to be activated manually after the engines are up ( just behind the throttle levers ).

 

Trimming, on the other hand, is tricky for me too ...

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I personally started with the L-39 first (AMAZING plane in DCS) and upgraded to the F5. Indeed the F5 is a bit more difficult to fly level, but with the damper on (the two switches at your left) and a greater joystick deadzone/curve adjustment will help a lot. You will like it in the end.

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The F-5 is not a hands off airplane, so constant stick input is necessary to fly straight and level. The trimmer is not supposed to achieve that but rather to decrease the stick deflection that is needed for adjustments as far as possible.

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It sounds like you're in the correct path but not with enough flight time on the bird.

 

Give yourself more time to get used to it. It is a "interesting" plane to fly in terms of controls but it is not a hard bird to tame overall.

 

 

 

 

:) not tried curves thought straight linear on the joystick would give the best response...i'll see how i get on with that - thanks!

 

 

I'd bet 80% of your problems are due to that. Use the curves.

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I agree that adjusting curve values for pitch/roll helps with the F5, else she's too twitchy. I got a nice and heavy feel flying her using these values (originally posted for the L-39, but really useful for the F-5 imho, including curves and axis saturation values):

 

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I'll freely admit the answer is probably..."its hard...and you're a DCS noob"

But more seriously, purchased the F5E Module in the Christmas Sale as a sort of "lead-in" trainer to the more advanced Combat Aircraft I want to fly...(I already have the A10C and the AV8B mouldering little used on my hard-drive)

 

 

I thought the F5 with its "steam instruments" and lack of FBW/FLCS would instill some good basics/foundations to set me up for the more "systems" based flying of contemporary Aircraft...

 

 

Anyway, long story short - all i'm currently doing is firing up Free-Flight and trying to trim for level flightconstant speed at different speeds and altitudes...and also trying to sit in formation with the "Lead" Aircraft in the scenario...

 

 

Trimming for level flight seems very difficult...not helped by the "button" type trim...doesn't seem to be a way of mapping it to a slider or dial axis for analogue trim control...so a click up gives a climb...a click down gives a descent (rinse and report in increments) likewise the throttle lag makes a steady speed or position in formation very hard to attain...oh and the classic "use your leads wings as a horizon" use rudder for lateral movements seems tough becuase easing off the rudder always seems to cause the nose to "baloon" back to its original position...

 

 

I know we're talking real basic flight...but any tips for smooth co-ordinated flight and formations in this deceptively awkward little plain...

 

 

I've not even moved onto turns yet!

 

The best place to start is the equipment you are interfacing with. The F5 requires a light touch. Your problems could be as simple as a short joystick. I fly with the longest extension on my Warthog and find the F5 to be a wonderful airplane. Without the extension it would be miserable.

 

 

 

 

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A short stick is fine for the F-5. Set your trim to your hat on your stick and just make your gradual trim adjustments, left,right,up, down etc. On taking off just raise your nose wheel to max and trim up according to your loadout weight. It`s simple and straight forward, the F-5 is actually a nice aircraft for steady flight. The F/A-18 is even more of a doddle.

If you are short on buttons, consider using a modifier button.

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The F-5 is my favorite! Add curve for sure (what stick do you use)?

 

Only add enough dead zone to eliminate unwanted inputs at center. You want it to respond only to positive force.

 

Trim so it is wanting to pitch nose-down at center, then hold in a bit of back-pressure to compensate. It won't trim out perfectly.

 

Remember that as soon as your speed changes, it will want re-trimming. It will become second-nature after a while.

 

If you're able to, remove the spring from your stick and replace it with a weak spring. The spring actually makes it harder to fly.

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A short stick is fine for the F-5. Set your trim to your hat on your stick and just make your gradual trim adjustments, left,right,up, down etc. On taking off just raise your nose wheel to max and trim up according to your loadout weight. It`s simple and straight forward, the F-5 is actually a nice aircraft for steady flight. The F/A-18 is even more of a doddle.

If you are short on buttons, consider using a modifier button.

 

Using trim to compensate for a short joystick is a poor idea at best.

 

 

 

 

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The F-5 is my favorite! Add curve for sure (what stick do you use)?

 

Only add enough dead zone to eliminate unwanted inputs at center. You want it to respond only to positive force.

 

Trim so it is wanting to pitch nose-down at center, then hold in a bit of back-pressure to compensate. It won't trim out perfectly.

 

Remember that as soon as your speed changes, it will want re-trimming. It will become second-nature after a while.

 

If you're able to, remove the spring from your stick and replace it with a weak spring. The spring actually makes it harder to fly.

 

Everything you say here is true for the most part if one absolutely cannot add a stick extension.

 

An extension is a better choice if at all possible because it it gives much finer control without to resorting to unnatural curves AND an extension automatically reduces the spring resistance in direct proportion to its length.

 

Which is why I suggested he start with his interface.

 

Can the joystick be extended? If yes, do that first and see how it behaves.

 

 

 

 

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Using trim to compensate for a short joystick is a poor idea at best.

What`s this compensation for a short stick. The majority use a short/standard stick when playing dcs. An aircraft has to be trimmed regardless. One has nothing to do with the other. Now for aiming/fine tuning targets, a longer throw will give finer adjustments on the fly. But in relation to trim and having the aircraft fly straight & level w/o inputs just use trim as per usual. It`s not rocket science.

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What`s this compensation for a short stick. The majority use a short/standard stick when playing dcs. An aircraft has to be trimmed regardless. One has nothing to do with the other. Now for aiming/fine tuning targets, a longer throw will give finer adjustments on the fly. But in relation to trim and having the aircraft fly straight & level w/o inputs just use trim as per usual. It`s not rocket science.

 

Its possible we have a wee bit of a language barrier.

 

On re-reading your post I think you have said "Before takeoff, hike the nose strut and then set the pitch trim according to the aircraft publications".

 

On first reading I thought you were saying "On takeoff, rotate the nose and then use the pitch trim to fly it after that"

 

And I had no clue what a doddle might be until I googled it.

 

In any case, a stick extension makes online flying MUCH easier. I flew with a MSSWPP for 19 years before I got an extended Warthog. I know of which I speak.

 

 

 

 

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Its possible we have a wee bit of a language barrier.

 

On re-reading your post I think you have said "Before takeoff, hike the nose strut and then set the pitch trim according to the aircraft publications".

 

On first reading I thought you were saying "On takeoff, rotate the nose and then use the pitch trim to fly it after that"

 

And I had no clue what a doddle might be until I googled it.

 

In any case, a stick extension makes online flying MUCH easier. I flew with a MSSWPP for 19 years before I got an extended Warthog. I know of which I speak.

 

I appreciate the language barrier. In fairness to you, you are doing quiet well if English is not your first language, in conversing in same. Regarding the long stick, yes it`s better for finer adjustment, especially for targeting etc. But if the initial poster is talking about smooth steady flight etc. then the aircraft just needs trimming. Once trimmed correctly for level flight, very little stick input is required.

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use rudder for lateral movements seems tough becuase easing off the rudder always seems to cause the nose to "baloon" back to its original position...

 

It's supposed to do that and its a property of an accurate flight model. An airplane does not fly on tracks and is not moving in the same direction that the nose is pointing if you are in any kind of a turn. The difference between the nose direction and the velocity vector explains why the nose turns back when you ease off the rudder.

 

Here's a bit more explanation: The rudder used alone creates this effect because simply yawing the airframe with the rudder does not move the velocity vector instantly. If you step on the left rudder pedal the nose will turn left but the plane will be moving in a direction to the right of the nose. (Try stepping hard on the rudder in a jet that has a velocity vector indicator on the HUD and you will see what I mean.) Instead, the velocity vector lags behind the longitudinal axis of the jet while you are on the rudder. This creates sideslip. It is the sideslip that causes the nose to turn back a bit when you ease off the rudder as the plane weathervanes back towards the velocity vector. You just need to allow for that.

 

BTW, the sideslip also produces asymmetric changes in the airflow over the wings on the two sides of the plane, and thus affects the lift vector too while you are using the rudder. That tends to induce a roll if you do not counter it using the stick. So smooth flying requires coordinated use of stick and rudder in a turn, not just one or the other. This is especially true in less powerful planes where you can't rely on just hitting the afterburner to get moving in the direction the nose is pointing. It's a big deal in prop planes.

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Thanks so much for all the replies!!!

 

I'll try a little "curve" adjustment over the weekend to see if it has a massive impact...

Though I suspect as hinted...practice...and an acceptance that its not a totally hands off flight experience will be of as much help!

Thanks for the feedback on rudder usage...

Currently an extension to my Joystick isn't really an option...

I'm using a CH Products set-up (though I do have a Warthog set boxed...I'm going to use that in the near future following a room move for my computer and I wonder if that might help too...)

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I’ve got a little time in the F5F, and find that the DCS example exhibits terrible directional stability below about 200 knots. I’m amazed that any lay person can land the thing.

 

Can you elaborate? It appears to me that the sim exhibits quite a bit of adverse yaw, but if you're ready for it, it's not a problem.

 

Note I'm not saying anything about the accuracy with the above; only that I accept problems in handling and work around them.

 

I understand the real aircraft would actually roll with rudder inputs, so what we see is incorrect anyway.

Motorola 68000 | 1 Mb | Debug port

"When performing a forced landing, fly the aircraft as far into the crash as possible." - Bob Hoover.

The JF-17 is not better than the F-16; it's different. It's how you fly that counts.

"An average aircraft with a skilled pilot, will out-perform the superior aircraft with an average pilot."

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Thanks so much for all the replies!!!

 

I'll try a little "curve" adjustment over the weekend to see if it has a massive impact...

Though I suspect as hinted...practice...and an acceptance that its not a totally hands off flight experience will be of as much help!

Thanks for the feedback on rudder usage...

Currently an extension to my Joystick isn't really an option...

I'm using a CH Products set-up (though I do have a Warthog set boxed...I'm going to use that in the near future following a room move for my computer and I wonder if that might help too...)

 

The spring on the Warthog is very stiff. It will likely make things worse with the stock stick length ( unextended )

 

You may find yourself shopping for a less forceful spring

 

https://warthog-extensions-by-sahaj.com/shop/warthog-green-springs/

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=143870


Edited by pmiceli

 

 

 

 

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