Reverb owners - it's impossible to get rid of ghosting and have high resolution

Eagecrash, chill buddy! My post was actually in response to another thread with the title stating that they had solved ghosting. This kind of misinformation wastes people's valuable time and money, so I wanted a clear thread for those trying to solve ghosting on the Reverb (which many have thanks to the misinformation on these forums) telling them not to bother. This came after I spent days and days trying to solve the issue, only to find it's impossible. Certain other people on these forums don't help the matter, claiming it's other users' computers at fault, and that their game runs perfectly with no ghosting issues.

 

You did actually claim that you had solved ghosting when messaging me, stating things like: "This could very well be why you're having ghosting on yours. I haven't found this to be the case...Its only the nature of reprojection if you're over-taxing the processor...the Su-27 looks just fine in the merge when I'm in the F-14... I'm very familiar with what ghosting looks like...Doesn't happen with the Reverb"

 

This is why I asked you to run VRfps so I could verify your subjective observations with objective facts. Unfortunately you didn't, so I spent considerable time trying to replicate your non-ghosting. Turns out this is impossible, at least when running the Reverb at its native resolution - I'm not going to try lower, as I could have stuck with my Vive Cosmos to run at those resolutions.

 

I totally understand if you don't perceive ghosting like many of us do. Perhaps some of us have higher-attuned visual systems due to long-term gaming that makes us more sensitive to this? (I know gamers are indeed susceptible to noticing visual flaws more than non-gamers, as I did an experiment on the LCD projector rainbow effect with a test-group, but I digress). Regardless, I envy you for not being bothered by this - but it could also be due to the fact that you don't fly fighters and don't dogfight, making you less prone to being in situations where it's extremely obvious. I can say that for those of us who dogfight at WVR, the ghosting is pretty damn atrocious. Nothing like seeing an Su-27 warp right on by, with a ghost-like second aircraft a metre behind it! I don't think it's overly critical to point out such a fundamental issue.

 

As for what settings I ran my tests in, I used the F-14 in numerous places - the F-14 carrier take-off training mission, the F-14 runway takeoff quick mission, and F-14 dogfight quick mission - and using the following test settings, other than running the Reverb at its native resolution via SteamVR's setting panel:

• All in-game settings low, but I didn't disable shadows (kept them at low)
  
• All in-game settings high
  
• A mixture of high and low, lowering those that had the biggest impact on frametime (not fps)
  

 

Turns out the difference between low and high is about 45fps in low to 36fps in high - and even at 45fps, reprojection is enabled automatically (remember, the game must hit 90fps to match the 90Hz of the HMD to disable reprojection). I also tried the F-16 and F-18 in various scenarios to see if their less detailed models would still cause terrible performance - they do. I'm not sure about the A-10 though; given it's a decade old old model, I'd wager that it has slightly better performance, but would still suffer from performance issues.

 

The reason I mention my experience is to show that I'm used to testing these things scientifically, with results that can be replicated and terminology that everyone can understand. I know the importance of sharing factual, correct information, as people read it and then use it to make decisions on how they spend their time and money. When people spread incorrect information, it can lead to others wasting their time, or becoming frustrated trying to solve an impossible problem.

 

Anyway, as I said, your inability to see ghosting is fantastic. Unfortunately, ghosting is a real problem for Reverb users, whether the player is one of the few who doesn't see it or not, and existing owners and potential buyers of the Reverb shouldn't chase a rainbow trying to fix it. (bolded so that those looking for a Reverb ghosting fix don't get caught up in all the guff on this thread!). While this is a problem, DCS VR remains a fantastic way to fly around scenery at altitude, but falls apart in the nitty gritty of dog-fighting.

 

Oh, btw, the reason the game slows down when you have external video feeds on your HMDs is that it has to re-render each of those zoomed in areas , thus massively increasing the geometry load on your PC. Hope that helps.

would You be so kind to show us screenshot including fpsVR graph from situation where you see "unacceptable ghosting" ?

(free SU would be better, as everyone can reproduce it)

Eaglecrash, if you want to deny stating clearly in your messages that you solved ghosting, that's up to you. It’s there in writing, so I'd kindly ask you to check your messages again. If other people ask for it, I’m happy to show them in their entirety, but it seems rather pedantic.

The thread I was referring to that sparked my OP is just below this one (https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=220815), but there are also dozens of posts on these forums saying that it can be resolved (there's even some in this very thread that suggest user error is the issue). Please don’t ask me to spend more time finding them, as I'm sure you can do so using the forum's search feature. You'll also see that this had led to great confusion in the forums, which is why the work of Thud is so appreciated. I just wish I'd stuck to his info before going down the ghost-free rabbit hole! :)

Also, you’re running 100% SS in what seems to be the SteamVR release version (based on the low resolution you use). Please note that you need to update this to the SteamVR beta release for it to correctly identify the Reverb – set the beta SS to 100% and it will then run at the Reverb’s native resolution. UPDATE - IT NEEDS THE STEAM WMR BETA TO ENABLE THE REVERB'S NATIVE RESOLUTIONAgain, Thud has done all the hard work here if you want to see. Or you can manually change it in the release SteamVR slider to correctly reflect the resolution. Or you can run at the same resolution as the Index or Cosmos, like you do, but that defeats the purpose of the Reverb - you're better of with a wide FOV in the other HMDs at this lower resolution.

My descriptions of my settings aren’t vague – they’re concise. Anybody can easily replicate them exactly except for the last one which was a mixture of high/low.

Finally, I don’t need to take a screenshot – run everything at low (but keep the Reverb at its native resolution, and don’t disable shadows entirely). Run the F-14 dogfight quickstart, then watch the Su-27 warp on by as you make the knife fight. In fact, try any mission where you’re flying close to aircraft moving near you at a decent velocity at a different heading, and you’ll see huge double projections of their model.

Feel free to post another essay, but please don’t muddy the waters – it’s impossible to run the Reverb at native resolution and not experience ghosting. Can you agree on this? I’m sure it might run much better with the resolution dropped 35%, which is also why lesser HMDs don’t experience this issue as much.

Last evening I test allot and install Simshaker to my Simulator. I looking hard to find Ghosting, but the only tiny bit I'm found,was if I move my head fast left and right,you see a tiny bit of ghosting on the Hud Frame ,but that's really nothing and nobody fly like this. I put my headset up and look to my 144Hz C49HG90 and do the same Movements, and see this tiny Ghosting there also. I can't understand this discussion at all now

This is not a HP Reverb Problem.

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Ghosting?? If I do have it, I do not notice it.

I do not work for ED or HP and I bought the Reverb for 589€.

So it's not my in my interest to post here thinks, that not happening in the real life. I a VR User from the beginning and on the week i got my Reverb,i beginning the Rebuild of my Flightsimulator Addon for my Simracing Motionsim. I owning a Reverb S before, this was ok for me but nothing Special, so the most time I'm Simracing with it. Since I have the Reverb,I love to play DCS,because i can read everything without stress for my eyes and it's also Butter Smooth. My system runs on static 5,1Ghz without HT, the 2080Ti @+200Mhz and the Driver on Maximum Performance. It never Crashes while playing and runs absolutely Stable on the Native Reverb Resolution.

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Toykilla, your nuggets of wisdom are priceless. It's comments like yours that cause people to waste time.

Just to scratch my curiosity, would you be ever so kind as to tell me what fps you're seeing when running the Reverb at its native resolution of 2160 x 2160? Here's a guide to show you how to set the correct resolution in case you're not aware of how to run your Reverb correctly - you'll need to up the SS% if you're running SteamVR, or install the SteamVR beta for the software to correctly recognise the Reverb's native resolution:

https://vr4dcs.com/2019/09/10/reverb-settings-for-dcs/

Most 45FPS Stable with "Motionvector" on Steam VR and WMR Beta.

Do you Write it personal? Perhaps you should think about it or stay by Screen Gaming and think also about your postings here.

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Thanks Toykilla for confirming that, yes, your WMR HMD is indeed using reprojection, as seen by your locked 45fps. And thus you must also experience the very same artifacts that the designers of this technology have talked about about in numerous articles, interviews and white papers. Now before you ask me to send you this information, try this

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+motion+reprojection&s=g

Unless you have a secret version of WMR or SteamVR that we don't know about? ;)

Thanks Toykilla for confirming that, yes, your WMR HMD is indeed using reprojection, as seen by your locked 45fps. And thus you must also experience the very same artifacts that the designers of this technology have talked about about in numerous articles, interviews and white papers. Now before you ask me to send you this information, try this

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+motion+reprojection&s=g

 

Unless you have a secret version of WMR or SteamVR that we don't know about? ;)

So why did you bother with the testing for 2 weeks if it's a known problem ?

Thanks Toykilla for confirming that, yes, your WMR HMD is indeed using reprojection, as seen by your locked 45fps. And thus you must also experience the very same artifacts that the designers of this technology have talked about about in numerous articles, interviews and white papers. Now before you ask me to send you this information, try this

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+motion+reprojection&s=g

 

Unless you have a secret version of WMR or SteamVR that we don't know about? ;)

With that Option,DCS runs Fantastic and without artifacts,so I don't now what you talking about or what your mission here is...

What is your Problem? Do you love Oculus so much or like Screen Playing ? If I had any problem with DCS or VR, you would it read in this Forum for sure.

Thrust me,its perfect and I love it.

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Just for clarity it is the WMR for SteamVR beta that fixes the scaler in SteamVR, not the SteamVR beta.

In my experience many people with VR headsets are running as high or higher than Reverb native resolution be it through setting SteamVR SS or PD in game striving to get a decent image. It isn't unusual to see recommendations to run even older hardware like a CV1 at 2.0 PD or 200% SS.

Comparing Reverb with Index I was running significantly higher resolutions with the Index chasing the Reverb clarity.

So in real world use I don't believe the Reverb suffers any more than most other headsets and even dropping below its native has a better image than a comparative headset running at the same resolution settings.

So why did you bother with the testing for 2 weeks if it's a known problem ?

Because certain information I was given was contrary to this. Hence why I then researched it and educated myself.

Just for clarity it is the WMR for SteamVR beta that fixes the scaler in SteamVR, not the SteamVR beta.

Ahhh, thanks for the correction, appreciated.

Guys I just got my Reverb today going from a Rift CV1. As far as I could tell it runs fantastic! Its like the CV1 but everything is just better.

Now, I am a coffee roaster. We do cupping to test various aspects of the coffee roasting process and for QC. One rule with our company is no one is allowed to say what they think about whatever we are cupping at the time until the end because it is so subjective and if someone tastes something and says "I think it is bright with an ashy after taste" then your mind 'sees' that and you will taste something similar. Can I humbly put forward all this about ghosting in the Reverb is similar. I have experienced no ghosting at all but I may well be completely unfamiliar with what it looks like (and as the example above please don't show be because I am happy in my ignorance!). To me it has been a wonderful upgrade and I haven't even looked seriously into setting it up yet, it was literally plug and play today and I got lucky, it just worked great! This is on a new build i78700, 32Gig ram, M2SSD, 2080 Super. I have my graphic settings stupidly high as well and I host MP for our medium sized group The Flying Kiwis, so its a work out for the PC for sure but honestly couldn't complain about my experience tonight and it was a fairly heavy mission, it was aside from two huge pauses as smooth as I could ask for.

I just wanted to add the subjective example side of this as Gunslinger you are obviously acutely aware of ghosting so possibly you will notice it immediately where is someone like me new to the Reverb is just so happy with all its advances over the previous generation I cant really see what your talking about and so it is a non issue for me personally at this stage.

I've recently gotten back into another game (ED) that has high fidelity flight models, lots of other computational complexity, and fast moving objects, and has the same or more graphics configurable objects, and I have seen no ghosting on my hardware. And yet, I get ghosting in DCS every dog flight. I think this is all DCS and not the current hardware or middleware issues.

Correct. DCS is a dog in VR... Other games/sims with reverb are smooth as butter on my rig. Its not the hardware, its DCS. That being said, I don't think the other titles are doing anywhere near as much work though.

Simulations are always more complex than causal Games. Simracing need also mutch performance with the Reverb.

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Correct. DCS is a dog in VR... Other games/sims with reverb are smooth as butter on my rig. Its not the hardware, its DCS. That being said, I don't think the other titles are doing anywhere near as much work though.

Nice to hear there are some other realistic people here...

So, an update - I'm retiring my Reverb. It's just too ugly compared to a good display, with terrible reprojection artifacts, poor visibility, narrow FOV, and other issues. Luckily mine is now showing 2 dead pixels, so they're going to refund me for it.

So, an update - I'm retiring my Reverb. It's just too ugly compared to a good display, with terrible reprojection artifacts, poor visibility, narrow FOV, and other issues. Luckily mine is now showing 2 dead pixels, so they're going to refund me for it.

So we can Close this nonsense thread here now

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