Change Wording: "Set SPI Generator" instead of "Make SPI"

Quigon I thought you knew better

Please contact the US Airforce and the US DoD and force them to change their manual and training which has been in use for the past 40 years.

 

I understand your point that the DCS manual is based on the actual RL documentation.

 

Like you already said yourself, the DCS manual is not identical to RL documentation, though.

 

So I don't think that's the way it's going to go. ;)

 

Until then the DCS Manual stays the way it is.

 

By all means, feel free to express your wishes, like everyone else.

 

Like I said before, I have faith that the ED team know how the system works and whether the proposed change makes sense to them or not.

 

As for the rest of the previous posts please re-read my detailed explanation of what is a SPI and how it works. I am no longer interested in counter posts with people who are not interested in understanding.

 

Believe it or not, I read through each of your posts in this thread at least half a dozen times. I honestly tried to make sense of what you wrote. It just doesn't, at least to me. Of course it doesn't help that you keep alleging things no one ever mentioned, or that some of your claims are simply wrong, and that other questions remain unanswered.

 

PS. The SPI is a single point in 3d space that gets updated.

 

I still don't get it. No one ever disputed that. But how do you "make" a point? And why would it be wrong to think about that point (or rather: its coordinates) to get generated continuously?

 

In any case, I stand by the idea that "Set SPI Generator" remains the most accurate description for the function of TMS Forward Long, and it's neither my decision, nor yours, whether the manual gets updated accordingly. I hope it will, because that would mean getting newcomers to understand the system a lot better. The terminology is already in use in the manual and is not uncommon right here on the forum. It's a logical change.

I sincerely hope that ED keeps the original wording of the English documentation.

 

 

 

I actually did not ever hear the use of the term "SPI generator" until this post got started. It appears nowhere in any checklist, cheat sheet, kneeboard or key/HOTAS assignment that I have ever downloaded in the past 10 years.

 

 

 

I would be a huge disservice to start changing manuals with terms that are not even used IRL because some non native English speakers are using this term.

 

 

 

I know that being German you will continue to have the last word, but for something this fundamental that really should not even be considered.

I knew this is what was going to happen.

 

Please contact the US Airforce and the US DoD and force them to change their manual and training which has been in use for the past 40 years.

That is bullshit. The manuals and trainings get updated, optimized and corrected, all the time.

Until then the DCS Manual stays the way it is.

I doubt you are in a position to decide this.

Call it the WhirlyBird Dynamo Creator for all I care, just don't touch the manual.

I'll escalate internally, don't worry.

The DCS manual, luckily

isn't written by the US military. ;)

 

As for the rest of the previous posts please re-read my detailed explanation of what is a SPI and how it works. I am no longer interested in counter posts with people who are not interested in understanding.

 

PS. The SPI is a single point in 3d space that gets updated.

 

That is all

 

Thank you.

So, talking about understanding. You did not check the two little things I asked you to check, that perfectly shows that it is updated/computed continuously?

Then we need to agree we disagree...

I sincerely hope that ED keeps the original wording of the English documentation.

 

 

 

I actually did not ever hear the use of the term "SPI generator" until this post got started. It appears nowhere in any checklist, cheat sheet, kneeboard or key/HOTAS assignment that I have ever downloaded in the past 10 years.

 

 

 

I would be a huge disservice to start changing manuals with terms that are not even used IRL because some non native English speakers are using this term.

 

 

 

I know that being German you will continue to have the last word, but for something this fundamental that really should not even be considered.

For the third time, it has nothing to do with non-native speakers, or different language. The term SPI generator was introduced by SMEs (native speakers with direct exposure to the plane) during the late Beta phase or shortly after release. It is not an invention of Yurgon, nor is it "wrong".

It simply helps to better understand what happens if you command the current SOI to continuously update the SPI coordinates, replacing the former sensor that until then updates the SPI coordinates.

What you can see in action if you select TGP as SOI, while the SPI is still coming from the WP, MAV, TAD or whatever... The SPI will move with the old sensor/WP until you command the SOI to become the source of the SPI coordinates. And when slewing the SPI around with the TGP while broadcasting in MP you can see the constant(!) updated SPI moving on your wingmens TAD. Without pressing TMS UP LONG to update the SPI or "make a SPI". You can switch SOI to HUD or MAV and back to the TGP and it still slews the SPI around. There is no old/stored set of coordinates, that needs to be updated. It is constantly updated by the sensor providing the SPI, until you command a different SOI and set it as source for the SPI.

For the third time, it has nothing to do with non-native speakers, or different language. The term SPI generator was introduced by SMEs (native speakers with direct exposure to the plane) during the late Beta phase or shortly after release. It is not an invention of Yurgon, nor is it "wrong".

It simply helps to better understand what happens if you command the current SOI to continuously update the SPI coordinates, replacing the former sensor that until then updates the SPI coordinates.

What you can see in action if you select TGP as SOI, while the SPI is still coming from the WP, MAV, TAD or whatever... The SPI will move with the old sensor/WP until you command the SOI to become the source of the SPI coordinates. And when slewing the SPI around with the TGP while broadcasting in MP you can see the constant(!) updated SPI moving on your wingmens TAD. Without pressing TMS UP LONG to update the SPI or "make a SPI". You can switch SOI to HUD or MAV and back to the TGP and it still slews the SPI around. There is no old/stored set of coordinates, that needs to be updated. It is constantly updated by the sensor providing the SPI, until you command a different SOI and set it as source for the SPI.

 

 

 

 

Please tell me the source of the SMEs who worked on the A10C and used the term Set SPI Generator.

 

 

 

Like I mentioned I've had this module for almost 10 years and yet only heard of this term this week.

 

 

 

It does not appears in a single cheat sheet or in any download file ever made for A10C .

 

 

I do not believe you when you say this term is used anywhere else but in the lexicon of non native english speakers (but of course there are always exceptions).

 

 

The aiforce manual, as stated before,CLEARLY describes the TMS Forward LONG action as creating/making a SPI through a SOI. It further explains making a SPI using 3 other commands.

 

 

 

Just because you disagree with the US Airforce does not make you or anyone else who disagrees with them as right.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Dagger71

The original part in the DCS A-10C Flight Manual (EN) in the chapter "Sensor Point of Interest (SPI)" explains pretty well, how TMS Forward long sets the SOI as SPI designator and how the SPI slews with e.g. Maverick or TGP. It's all there.

The ominous "Make SPI" is only used in the table for the Controls overview. I think "Set SPI" in the table would be a beautiful compromise to prevent the misconception of a simple "creation of a point, like a Markpoint" and better relate to the later chapter detailing the function.

May be a reference to the detailed chapter, under the table for the TMS switch is a good idea.

The original part in the DCS A-10C Flight Manual (EN) in the chapter "Sensor Point of Interest (SPI)" explains pretty well, how TMS Forward long sets the SOI as SPI designator and how the SPI slews with e.g. Maverick or TGP. It's all there.

The ominous "Make SPI" is only used in the table for the Controls overview. I think "Set SPI" in the table would be a beautiful compromise to prevent the misconception of a simple "creation of a point, like a Markpoint" and better relate to the later chapter detailing the function.

May be a reference to the detailed chapter, under the table for the TMS switch is a good idea.

 

 

 

 

I asked what SME used the term Set SPI Generator.

 

Make SPI is used in the airforce manual and is described in detail what happens when you make a SPI.

 

 

 

Maybe its time to update the A10C manual with a bit more explanation of creating a SPI

I asked what SME used the term Set SPI Generator.

 

Make SPI is used in the airforce manual and is described in detail what happens when you make a SPI.

 

 

 

Maybe its time to update the A10C manual with a bit more explanation of creating a SPI

First one I found...

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1750902

The DCS manual does state further

 

 

Set Sensor as SPI - this function allows the TGP, TAD, Maverick or HUD to define the SPI

 

 

I have no problem with this wording either.

 

 

 

 

Think of TMS Forward Long as "Make" Sensor SPI.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Dagger71

First one I found...

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1750902

 

 

 

 

 

 

???????

 

 

 

Who's the SME that used the term "Set SPI Generator"? I don't see it.

I strongly recommend anyone confused to look at pages 400-401 in the DCS manual.

 

 

 

It gives a GREAT description and even has a nice table with the 4 SOIs and their definable SPIs

...and just to mention, the manual is explaining the SOI and SPI concept pretty well. Only that chapter is quite late in the manual. When you read it you understand how the SOI is set to constantly designate the SPI, even when the sensor slews or you change SOI, until you set another SOI as SPI.

The issue is only with the controls overview table early in the manual, where a simple "make SPI" without further explanation leads many newcomers to think of the SPI as something similar to a markpoint or waypoint stored in a database for later use, rather than an up-to-date set of coordinates designated at all times, by whatever sensor is selected as SPI.

Honestly I don't give a sh... what the Air Force manual says, as we need a manual for the DCS A-10C Simulation and not the real plane.

People can use the original Air Force manual if they want, like or prefer. Our job is to help people with learning the ropes with the DCS simulation... and unfortunately, many people simply look at or copy the controls overview and get a misconception that is making it hard for squadrons to correct and/or clarify.

The DCS manual does state further

 

 

Set Sensor as SPI - this function allows the TGP, TAD, Maverick or HUD to define the SPI

 

 

I have no problem with this wording either.

 

 

 

 

Think of TMS Forward Long as "Make" Sensor SPI.

Yep, that's what I meant. Especially as it still fits in the control overview table.

and unfortunately, many people simply look at or copy the controls overview and get a misconception that is making it hard for squadrons to correct and/or clarify.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If anyone is having an issue with making SPI you can send them my way. The MP server I play on has some of the best A10C pilots in game. Some with real world experience as well.

 

 

 

I'll explain the entire SPI making process in less than 5 mins on discord while in plane.

 

 

 

 

 

there is absolutely no reason to change the official wording because some people don't understand what is actually happening when the commands are given.

Yep, that's what I meant. Especially as it still fits in the control overview table.

 

 

 

 

Well that is quite different from the extremely confusing "Set SPI Generator"

Well that is quite different from the extremely confusing "Set SPI Generator"

Not that far from the manual's Set SPI sensor designator. It refers to the SOI being set as the source from which the system generates the current SPI coordinates. It is a bit clunky and won't fit in the table, but "Set SPI" and a reference to the "Understanding SOI and SPI" chapter will help newcomers to better grasp the concept. :)

Not that far from the manual's Set SPI sensor designator. It refers to the SOI being set as the source from which the system generates the current SPI coordinates. It is a bit clunky and won't fit in the table, but "Set SPI" and a reference to the "Understanding SOI and SPI" chapter will help newcomers to better grasp the concept. :)

 

 

 

 

YA I have no problem with "Set Sensor as SPI" it explains that the TGP LOS is the SPI.

 

 

 

But where did you get "Set SPI sensor designator."??? I don't find this term in the manual either. It is again a very awkward term, even worse than Set SPI Generator.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Dagger71

Honestly I don't give a sh... what the Air Force manual says, as we need a manual for the DCS A-10C Simulation and not the real plane.

 

 

 

 

 

I think this sentence right here perfectly describes the tone for this ridiculous argument.

Progress. :)

 

Please tell me the source of the SMEs who worked on the A10C and used the term Set SPI Generator.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1578902

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2676487#post2676487

 

I'll leave it to you to figure out why I chose these.

 

Set Sensor as SPI - this function allows the TGP, TAD, Maverick or HUD to define the SPI

 

I have no problem with this wording either.

 

Think of TMS Forward Long as "Make" Sensor SPI.

 

A SPI CAN be defined by the SOI. The sensor does NOT become the SPI. Yes in with TGP/MAV/HUD the cue will remain SPI and can slew until you select a new SOI/or make a new SPI (other than TMS FWD LONG)

 

So a SPI is a point in 3 dimensional space that was made by a SOI or by any of the other 3 methods. It is a cue.

 

Is the SPI a point, or a sensor, or a cue? Is it made or defined or designated? Why not generated?

 

"Set Sensor as SPI" is a lot better than "Make SPI" IMO, but it's not quite there yet. The sensor does not become a point. It becomes the sensor that generates or defines or updates the point.

 

"Set SPI Updater", "Set SPI Definer" or "Set SPI Designator" would not be wrong IMO, but why invent new terms when "SPI Generator" is already in use (once more: it's already in the manual right now, just not in the place where I would like to have it replaced).

Edited September 10, 2019 by Yurgon

Is the SPI a point, or a sensor, or a cue? Is it made or defined or designated? Why not generated?

 

 

 

 

Please tell me you aren't seriously asking this question after all the explanation I have gone through.

 

 

 

It is a point in 3D space that is represented by a cue. It can be generated (which is a synonym of make/create) by a Sensor LOS like the TGP or Mav. As you slew, the point gets updated. It is NOT the Sensor but can defined by the sensor.

 

 

 

PLEASE tell me you understand this!!!

Edited September 10, 2019 by Dagger71

YA I have no problem with "Set Sensor as SPI" it explains that the TGP LOS is the SPI.

 

 

 

But where did you get "Set SPI sensor designator."??? I don't find this term in the manual either. It is again a very awkward term, even worse than Set SPI Generator.

DCS A-10C Flight Manual, page 400, Chapter "Sensor Point of Interest (SPI)", middle of the page: "SPI sensor designators" then listing all sensors and end with the table for SOI and definable SPI. The table you referenced yourself in an earlier post.

Please tell me you aren't seriously asking this question after all the explanation I have gone through.

 

 

 

It is a point in 3D space that is represented by a cue. It can be generated (which is a synonym of make/create) by a Sensor LOS like the TGP or Mav. As you slew, the point gets updated. It is NOT the Sensor but can defined by the sensor.

 

 

 

PLEASE tell me you understand this!!!

Yep, correct. And what does TMS Forward long do?

...and on top of the very same page 400 (paragraph 2, last sentence), we have:

(...)"The current SPI generator is always indicated in the lower left corner of the HUD"(...)

Notice the words "SPI generator"!

Yep, correct. And what does TMS Forward long do?

Makes SPI from the current SOI.