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Experienced BF-109 pilots - help needed - right roll level flight


Mud

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Hey folks,

 

I need some advice / knowledge:

 

Unless I'm mistaken, it's a known fact that BF109 pilots had to apply left rudder often. Hence the story goes they had strong left legs.

 

I cannot fly the plane level, no matter what manual prop pitch and ata I set. No problem really, just apply left rudder. The only problem there is that I get lactic acid in my left quads after 15 minutes. Yes I know, I need to work out :D

 

My question however is: applying the left rudder to stop the right roll tendency moves the slip ball a bit to the right. Which would mean drift, right? Is that how the plane was flown then? Ignore the drift and use your legs to counter the roll tendency? Wouldn't it make more sense to apply some left stick input?

 

Okay, that was more than one question. I'm pedantic when it comes to realism and I would really like to fly the plane as it was flown in real.

 

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

 

Best regards and happy 2018!

 

Mud

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My question however is: applying the left rudder to stop the right roll tendency moves the slip ball a bit to the right. Which would mean drift, right?

 

Right. And it's not a good thing.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to apply some left stick input?

 

Yes it would. Why are you not doing it then :D? That's what ailerons are for.

 

The plane doesn't require any rudder input when flown at cruise settings (auto prop, 1.05-1.1 ATA, nose heavy trim), the ball remains centered and the very light wing drop can be dealt with by a tiny bit of a stick input. Or maybe even not - it has those adjustable aileron trim tabs in special options, doesn't it? I suppose you can dial out the roll completely with these (for one chosen power setting obviously), but someone really experienced with the plane will have to come here and suggest some numbers.

 

I fly it only occasionally for sighseeing, so I don't bother with them at all.

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Thank's for your reply, Art!

 

Done some more testing and ended up in the same boat basically.

 

What I did find odd though, is that on ramp and I press R-CRTL+ENTER my stick input is dead zero. As soon as I'm airborne, with stick neutral physically I get right stick input shown. So for some reason DCS is considering me putting in right stick while I'm not.

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The diamond symbol on controls indicator doesn't show the physical stick position, but the virtual one, influenced not only by your input, but also by aero forces acting on controls. Thus it will match the real one only when the plane is standing, as there is no airflow over controls.

 

A bit to the right during flight you say? I don't remember how it should look, maybe you left some aileron trim on.

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The most important part in Art-J message is here :

"The plane doesn't require any rudder input when flown at cruise settings (auto prop, 1.05-1.1 ATA, nose heavy trim)"

The plane is trimmed for specific regimes.

With auto prop activated, aim for 1.15ATA or 1.35ATA, they are the 2 values that give me the most stable aircraft

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Thanks for the input, ppl. I really appreciate it.

 

I have no trimming set at all apart from nose down. As pitch is the only trim you have in the pit anyway.

 

But I sure as hell have to either apply left rudder or left stick to fly level, no matter what regime I fly. Not that I find that in itself a problem as long as it's realistic.

 

What baffles me though is that some of you seem to imply you can fly hands and feet off as long as you're set at a certain engine regime.

 

Or are we talking on different frequencies here? :)

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Thanks for the input, ppl. I really appreciate it.

 

I have no trimming set at all apart from nose down. As pitch is the only trim you have in the pit anyway.

 

But I sure as hell have to either apply left rudder or left stick to fly level, no matter what regime I fly. Not that I find that in itself a problem as long as it's realistic.

 

What baffles me though is that some of you seem to imply you can fly hands and feet off as long as you're set at a certain engine regime.

 

Or are we talking on different frequencies here? :)

 

The 109 has the option that rudder trim can be set by the crew on the ground. It is in that way normally trimmed to cruise speed at cruise altitute. So if you're flying her in cruise setting (Art-J's parameter look good to me), only minor control input is neccessary to maintain stable level flight. Hands of flying without AP is never recommended ;-)

 

I adjust throttle to balance her out rudder wise and trim here to +2 nose down.

 

At 3000m i normally end up at round about 420kph - in that region she is pretty stable and doesn't require much input iirc i'll check the numbers when i get home after work


Edited by Pasquale1986

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The Trim on 109 simple a sheet Metal attached to the Aileron and rudder is bent by the Ground Crew (it is Red you can see this in game) to have at certain Speeds and Power settings stable Flight regime without touching the Controls.

And is not really necessary to Fly exact with slip Ball in the Middle from A to B.

Also rarely touch the Trim in the P-51 because you know latter exactly how much rudder and Aileron you need to fly Correct in combat situation and with the Planes Trimmed perfectly for certain cruse Speed you have latter unexpected rudder inputs at higher speeds.

Its a nice feature from London to Berlin but not really necessary currently in our Maps.

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What baffles me though is that some of you seem to imply you can fly hands and feet off as long as you're set at a certain engine regime.

 

Well, hands off is out of question, as there will always be a bit of untrimmable tail heaviness and some right roll to deal with (though again, I'm sure there are guys over here who experimented with "special options" fixed aileron trim tab setting to dial the latter out).

 

Feet off, however - absolutely :D. I just tested it again to make sure. With prop on auto, one could argue that at 1.05 ATA and ~420 IAS the ball JUST touches the right bracket a tiny little bit, I'll give you that, but getting closer to 1.1-1.2 ATA and ~450 IAS it's dead center with no pedals input whatsoever.

 

... incidentally, right roll also becomes negligible then. It's there allright, but way smaller than pitch input required for level flight. Now, that one gets on my nervers somewhat.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Right from the horse's mouth with no conjecture. Bottom line is the 109 was a pooch in the air with very little torque roll and flies "hands off". All the nasty habits were on the ground. Still we must fly the model we are given which appears to be more harsh than the real aircraft.

 

 

A good vid of a current pilot "chief test pilot Airbus" of a restored 109 having his brain picked from simmers like us about very specific quirks and how the 109 behaves. They ask him the EXACT question about torque roll during cruise and trim. NO RUDDER DURING CRUISE NEEDED. NO HANDS ON NEEDED. ELEVATOR NEUTRAL. MINIMAL TO NO TORQUE ROLL ADDING THROTTLE. IIRC he says 10mm from idle to full power. ALL issues with the 109 appear to be ON the ground. In the air it's a pooch.

Listen to him and he clears up a lot of misconceptions about the 109. After listening it appears DCS 109 is a little aggressive in the roll during cruise. He comments the 109 was trim neutral and harmonized but added 10 thousand were destroyed during t/o and landing. Another nugget was +1 trim on takeoff.

 

I have time in a few high powered, some overpowered small experimental aircraft. One was a small 2 seat Glasair 3 with 300+ HP engine that can hit almost 300 mph. Almost instant throttle and control response being very crisp but light. It's probably the closest thing I've flown to a warbird where you "fly the prop". Of course the 109 is made to kill and having trim neutral ability for pilot's comfort during cruise wasn't a concern.

 

All have a roll tendency and yes for sport flying that tilt does irk one accustomed to straight and level but that bird is made to kill. Don't recall the numbers but at cruise iirc I pulled prop back and can achieve a comfortable level flight which does have that slow creep from level. I keep it on auto as I do not fly the 109 worrying about a passenger in the back spilling her glass of wine.

Fly it hard. She is leaning cause it want's to turn towards the enemy and bring out the teeth.


Edited by JIMJAM
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That video was made by several dcs players in an attempt to gather evidence to convince ed to change elements of the fm relating to trim and cog. They were then promptly told they were wrong and at least one of them banned from the forums iirc.

9./JG27

 

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There is a big "if" concerning the video. The model discussed is the Gustav. We are flying the Kurfurst. It may be a detail, but the devil is often in that detail.

 

We have a trim issue to deal with, so we have to deal with it. These arguments have been presented to ED, and we still have the same flight model - clearly that is for a reason, to which we are not privy.

 

Just accept that you have an issue to deal with, and deal with it we must, because no change is likely, and we do not have anecdotal evidence related to the Kurfust to change that situation.

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I seem to recall Yo-Yo posting that K4's CG was further back compared to G-series (don't remember the quoted loadout config, though), thus making all articles/interviews featuring G irrelevant for "our" plane. That was the main reason why all threads on the subject (and oh boy, there were quite a few :D) were closed eventually.

 

Granted, I'm neither knowledgeable nor interested enough to judge the current FM, I just learned to deal with it.

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And what about the real pilot concern in the real life.You are constantly asking for what is real or not?And never how a pilot in real taking the subject.Do you think he comes to his plane and once onboard he asks how he has to drive at everybody around,and why some of commands are running to a direction or other?

Before access to the cockpit of any airplane he learns from the flight manual,all caracteristics of type of aircraft and what action have to be apply to get a normal flight.His work doesn't consist in asking for help while onboard.Before accessing to an aircraft model he is upgrade in a pilot school with an instructor.And the first of all thing that he has to learn is flight manual.Only when he is able to answer at theoric questions he gets the right to take the pilot commands.

The most of questions that are posted on this forum about behaviours of modules are coming from gents which never read a line of manual.Therefore which never know how a plane flying.

Pilot a plane in real life is a serious work,not a game.Make your choice between the real which is serious and restrictive and the entertainment which is only a fiction.

Make your attention on books and manuals,and you will never need to ask anything.

Go ahead in playing without any knowledge and don't wait for answer.

In most of case you have to deal with that you have in game.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Not quantifiable and thus not applicable. Plus it's the Gustav, not the Kurfürst.

The 109 was a working horse of the Luftwaffe, so obviously, new versions must not be very different. For example, proof was Erich Brunotte's experience - he flew K but not in combat just for ferry flight. He did not mention any significant differencies. So, if there are no valued sources for K the best way is to use real gocs for G. Indeed,the base model for the DCS 109 was a Russian test of a G2/R6.

:joystick:

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And your reason for making that leap is what exactly edgtho? A lack of information doesn't mean that alternative similar examples are correct.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that the G and the K are very different animals. Bung a V8 in a Mini Cooper, and I suspect there may be some subtle differences between it and a standard one. Bung a different engine AND a different CofG in a 109, and guess what?...

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That video was made by several dcs players in an attempt to gather evidence to convince ed to change elements of the fm relating to trim and cog. They were then promptly told they were wrong and at least one of them banned from the forums iirc.

 

They posted redundant info that proved nothing, and the one that was banned was banned for rule violations, not for questioning the FM, just to be clear.


Edited by BIGNEWY
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And your reason for making that leap is what exactly edgtho? A lack of information doesn't mean that alternative similar examples are correct.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that the G and the K are very different animals. Bung a V8 in a Mini Cooper, and I suspect there may be some subtle differences between it and a standard one. Bung a different engine AND a different CofG in a 109, and guess what?...

 

My reasons??? Nope, those aren't mine. :book:

I guess you overestimate the possible differencies between, for example, G and K regarding trim changes.

First of all, 109 was a working horse of the Luftwaffe, so obviously, new versions must not be very different.

Indirect proof was, for example, Erich Brunotte's experience - he flew K but not in combat just for ferry flight. He did not mention any significant differencies. So, if there are no valued sources for K the best way is to use real gocs for G than to create fictional dependancies.

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Right from the horse's mouth with no conjecture. Bottom line is the 109 was a pooch in the air with very little torque roll and flies "hands off". All the nasty habits were on the ground. Still we must fly the model we are given which appears to be more harsh than the real aircraft.

 

 

A good vid of a current pilot "chief test pilot Airbus" of a restored 109 having his brain picked from simmers like us about very specific quirks and how the 109 behaves. They ask him the EXACT question about torque roll during cruise and trim. NO RUDDER DURING CRUISE NEEDED. NO HANDS ON NEEDED. ELEVATOR NEUTRAL. MINIMAL TO NO TORQUE ROLL ADDING THROTTLE. IIRC he says 10mm from idle to full power. ALL issues with the 109 appear to be ON the ground. In the air it's a pooch.

Listen to him and he clears up a lot of misconceptions about the 109. After listening it appears DCS 109 is a little aggressive in the roll during cruise. He comments the 109 was trim neutral and harmonized but added 10 thousand were destroyed during t/o and landing. Another nugget was +1 trim on takeoff.

 

I have time in a few high powered, some overpowered small experimental aircraft. One was a small 2 seat Glasair 3 with 300+ HP engine that can hit almost 300 mph. Almost instant throttle and control response being very crisp but light. It's probably the closest thing I've flown to a warbird where you "fly the prop". Of course the 109 is made to kill and having trim neutral ability for pilot's comfort during cruise wasn't a concern.

 

All have a roll tendency and yes for sport flying that tilt does irk one accustomed to straight and level but that bird is made to kill. Don't recall the numbers but at cruise iirc I pulled prop back and can achieve a comfortable level flight which does have that slow creep from level. I keep it on auto as I do not fly the 109 worrying about a passenger in the back spilling her glass of wine.

Fly it hard. She is leaning cause it want's to turn towards the enemy and bring out the teeth.

JIMJAM, you should be very aware that the video you posted was made to "prove" a specific point that especially one of the interviewers was totally obsessed with (and which he refused to understand rebuttals of, again and again).

Try to look for comments and posts by user "III/JG52_Otto_+" and you will see what I mean.

(III/JG52_Otto_+ was eventually banned because he would not stop opening thread after thread on the subject, despite being warned time and again.)

 

As far as I recall, one of ED's responses was that the flight characteristics described in the video was when flying a lightly loaded (no weapons) and lightly fuelled 109, versus a fully loaded and fuelled DCS version.

Secondly that the DCS model is based on both several data sources and on several discussions with both actual and former pilots (incl. Volker Bau), not just one single interview.

 

You can also try to read the threads and comments Yo-Yo (ED's FM specialist) has written on the subject.

In my opinion he explains himself very well.

 

In other words, I wouldn't put too much credit into that particular video.

It should be seen for what it is, a very biased attempt to "prove" a point that has been rejected many times both before and after that interview.

 

The reason I post this late response is that I'm sad to again see the issue popping up, and being lent credibility, when it is actually an issue that has been well explained and refuted a long time ago

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  • 4 weeks later...
The 109 was a working horse of the Luftwaffe, so obviously, new versions must not be very different. For example, proof was Erich Brunotte's experience - he flew K but not in combat just for ferry flight. He did not mention any significant differencies. So, if there are no valued sources for K the best way is to use real gocs for G. Indeed,the base model for the DCS 109 was a Russian test of a G2/R6.

:joystick:

 

It was Brunottes video that eventually kept me from buying the D-9. He seemed totally not happy about the stalls, and seemed to indicate all those planes were rather easy to fly and land, not the flying coffins we now have in the sim. Might be just me but I think that's what he said.

 

The Bf 109 is rather flyable by the way, but worst offender imo would be the Spitfire. I just cannot imagine that it was that difficult to take off, wanted to lose control almost every time you moved the stick and tore off its wings when you pull back too hard.


Edited by Burning Bridges
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It was Brunottes video that eventually kept me from buying the D-9. He seemed totally not happy about the stalls, and seemed to indicate all those planes were rather easy to fly and land, not the flying coffins we now have in the sim. Might be just me but I think that's what he said.

 

He was flying a version what was before even the internal testers had, the whole point of his communication was to better improve the sim, it doesn't make sense that he was flying the final FM, his input was used to improve on it. I doubt that there is any such thing as an easy to fly WWII aircraft, unless you are something like Erich, someone that has had years of experience with these aircraft, and not that does not equate to years of experience in other WWII games.

 

Also most pilots have difficulties adapting from the real thing to a simulator, nothing feels the same as the real thing. Understand when Erich flew 109s and 190s, his control set up was better than ours, he could feel the plane with every part of his body, now cut him off from that, and see how he does.

 

Feel free to read my sig concerning the Spitfire.


Edited by NineLine

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