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Experienced BF-109 pilots - help needed - right roll level flight


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  • ED Team
That may all be, and I appreciate the time and effort you invested in making these birds realistic. But in the end my verdict is also final. I now own 2 WW2 planes that cannot fly straight for more than a few seconds. Realistic or not, I probably don't want any more of those.

 

Sorry to hear that, ED is trying to strive for realism, not fly-ability, unless the two are the same end result. Might try the A-10C, it has many autopilot and trim options for your liking ;)


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Sorry to hear that, ED is trying to strive for realism, not fly-ability, unless the two are the same end result. Might try the A-10C, it has many autopilot and trim options for your liking ;)

 

But that's what I meant. ED and customers should be striving for realism, flyability and sales. If one goes to the detriment of others there will be a problem, and as I said. it might be realistic, but for now: no more corkscrewing WW2 birds for me.

 

Might try the A-10C, it has many autopilot and trim options for your liking wink.gif

 

Yes, I can fly the Mig15 and L39 just fine, the jets in general are great.

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But that's what I meant. ED and customers should be striving for realism, flyability and sales. If one goes to the detriment of others there will be a problem, and as I said. it might be realistic, but for now: no more corkscrewing WW2 birds for me.

 

 

 

Yes, I can fly the Mig15 and L39 just fine, the jets in general are great.

 

If your are having that much trouble with the WW2 birds, there might be something up with your set up, I cant see this issue with mine.

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On that note I'd like the possibility to allow us to set trim sensitivity. Even in the P-51D I find it rather hard to trim properly using the 4-way hat switch because the increments are too big.

 

A small touch in any direction results in a bit too much trim.

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I'm struggling to understand the negative attitude I read in some of these posts. The two German fighters were harder to fly than their allied counterparts, and many Bf-109's were lost in takeoff and landing. Takeoff and landing are challenging indeed, but we don't risk our lives and I like the challenge. While the takeoff and landing with an undamaged A-10C is child's play, you have to be very concentrated with the Bf-109 every time. I ike this challenge, but I guess some people need it to be easy and I can understand that.

But I cannot understand the hype about the "lack of roll trim problem".

In the "Special" tab, the Bf-109 has the ground trim for ailerons and rudder. I have set these to -22 and -20 respectively, and I can fly hands off for long times when I'm cruising. It flies like a charm! Seems to me that some people have not set these options.

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I followed Yo-Yo's advice about the correct ATA setting and it works like a charm for me. Correct cruise, elevator trim set accordingly and no hands needed.I really like the WW2 birds :)

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In the "Special" tab, the Bf-109 has the ground trim for ailerons and rudder. I have set these to -22 and -20 respectively, and I can fly hands off for long times when I'm cruising. It flies like a charm! Seems to me that some people have not set these options.

 

Do you have to ask Ground Crew for the trim or where do you find the trim option?

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Do you have to ask Ground Crew for the trim or where do you find the trim option?

 

the special options / settings are in the menu in DCS, not in a mission.

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Do you have to ask Ground Crew for the trim or where do you find the trim option?

 

It's in the settings in DCS. In the special tab you can set parameters per aircraft.

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the special options / settings are in the menu in DCS, not in a mission.

 

Ah, thanks. I was assuming I can trim this in game. I disabled the T/O assist there ;)

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But I cannot understand the hype about the "lack of roll trim problem".

In the "Special" tab, the Bf-109 has the ground trim for ailerons and rudder. I have set these to -22 and -20 respectively, and I can fly hands off for long times when I'm cruising. It flies like a charm! Seems to me that some people have not set these options.

 

Thanks for your settings. It's incredible how many pages have been written on this topic and how little in terms of usable settings. I have tried and tried and used -16 aileron and 0 rudder.

 

Now as to what you call "negativity". I never expressed a problem with the takeoffs and landings, that much has been reported by real pilots. But I don't believe either the Spitfire was so instable as it is out of the box, and I also don't believe the German put their pilots with planes that had no modicum of horizontal stability. I listened to real pilots accounts and get the impression and it seems to me they were very inexperienced (20 year old men much less flying time than 40 year old virtual pilots) and found the planes easy to fly, with the exception of start and landing where the forces were not in balance.

This may be nitpicking from the point of view of very experienced pilots, but my impression is that a lot of people develop pains in their arms and legs and give up on the planes - which would be a shame.

I agree though that a lot of it comes with the control settings, one needs to find optimal joystick curves etc but it's so damn hard to develop those settings all on your own. The planes may eventually be perfect recreations but as it is it seems harder to fly than in real life because you have no experienced ground crew to give you a plane in a flyable condition.

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Thanks for your settings. It's incredible how many pages have been written on this topic and how little in terms of usable settings. I have tried and tried and used -16 aileron and 0 rudder.

 

Now as to what you call "negativity". I never expressed a problem with the takeoffs and landings, that much has been reported by real pilots. But I don't believe either the Spitfire was so instable as it is out of the box, and I also don't believe the German put their pilots with planes that had no modicum of horizontal stability. I listened to real pilots accounts and get the impression and it seems to me they were very inexperienced (20 year old men much less flying time than 40 year old virtual pilots) and found the planes easy to fly, with the exception of start and landing where the forces were not in balance.

This may be nitpicking from the point of view of very experienced pilots, but my impression is that a lot of people develop pains in their arms and legs and give up on the planes - which would be a shame.

I agree though that a lot of it comes with the control settings, one needs to find optimal joystick curves etc but it's so damn hard to develop those settings all on your own. The planes may eventually be perfect recreations but as it is it seems harder to fly than in real life because you have no experienced ground crew to give you a plane in a flyable condition.

 

 

 

New Jets are so unstable that even Pilot can not Fly this thing with PC in the Back Round, and why the do this to enhance manoeuvrability to neutral stable Plane.

From WW2 perspective without Computer Chips in the Planes they have stable Layout, but always with Focus to reduce as much as Possible Drag and enhance Flying Characteristic, was not a help to make a easy handle Plane for the Pilot.

And there is more then once mentioned in the German Literature the Pilots make the Tail heavy Trim to over come the Stick Forces and be more agile when they get Jump from above, the Spitfire is there wonderful with little bit Training, but even the RAF claimed the Spit have a little bit to low Stickforces and hard to handle.

This doesn't make comfortable Ride for Level Flight.

German Pilots makes fun about it they have different strong Legs to counter Engine Torque because of constant ruder input....

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Thanks for your settings. It's incredible how many pages have been written on this topic and how little in terms of usable settings. I have tried and tried and used -16 aileron and 0 rudder.

 

.

 

And where is the ball now for these settings? Seems to me that the plane flies crabbing now...

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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This may be nitpicking from the point of view of very experienced pilots, but my impression is that a lot of people develop pains in their arms and legs and give up on the planes - which would be a shame.

Pain in arms and legs? I think you are joking with a straight face...:)

I'm 72 and I fly mostly the 2 "Hun" planes, for hours sometimes; and it doesn't make my arms or legs hurt at all. Just fun!

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Do you have a better idea? I currently fly with -12 aileron 0 rudder.

 

Any prop pilot has: eliminate yaw first, because the roll is primarily due to yaw. So, rudder = 0 is a great mistake.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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This might be a bit off topic but what was the reason to not install aileron trim on the German aircraft? I always wondered why that is. Weight saving? reduced complexity when manufacturing the aircraft?

 

Any prop pilot has: eliminate yaw first, because the roll is primarily due to yaw. So, rudder = 0 is a great mistake.

 

Are you saying that keeping the Rudder trim at zero is a mistake? In the special options.

 

Also just noticed there is a typo there, "Rudder tim" :D

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=180647&stc=1&d=1520720162

1874316964_Semttulo.thumb.jpg.5523ef6a3fdec8f91c918c18472bbb6e.jpg

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  • ED Team
This might be a bit off topic but what was the reason to not install aileron trim on the German aircraft? I always wondered why that is. Weight saving? reduced complexity when manufacturing the aircraft?

 

 

 

Are you saying that keeping the Rudder trim at zero is a mistake? In the special options.

 

Also just noticed there is a typo there, "Rudder tim" :D

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=180647&stc=1&d=1520720162

 

This sliders shows your offsets from factory settings. The factory settings are made for a historical proven power rate for steady level flight. As one can notice, using this power setting you can fly almost hands free. If you prefer to readjust the settings, you must eliminate yaw with the rudder centering the ball, and only after that small aileron trim is needed.

So, having ailerons shifted, for example, by 16 and unchanged rudder, I think, you will fly with pronounced yaw.

 

P. S. As the trim slightly changes with altitude, small throttle input can help for retrimming.

 

P. P. S. It was very common not to use all three channels for controlled trim. Spitfire has no aileron trim. Yak-18T has no rudder and aileron trim, so sometimes it needs small constant rudder and yoke input.


Edited by Yo-Yo

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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This might be a bit off topic but what was the reason to not install aileron trim on the German aircraft? I always wondered why that is. Weight saving? reduced complexity when manufacturing the aircraft?

Interesting question, and I'm tempted to offer some guesses:

1. I think that the introduction of trimming was probably (at that time) an innovation that made it gradually into the world of military aviation, and was probably considered as a "nice to have" feature especially in Germany. And the young Germans at that time were certainly not demanding in terms of comfort. And Germany never disposed of plentiful resources, so low-priority "comfort" features didn't make it into the design.

2. The German planes were not designed for long-range operations with long cruising periods where a trimming capability in all 3 axes is really valuable. The P-51 on the other hand was a long-range fighter and therefore had all 3 trim axes.

 

PS the comment from YoYo is interesting. I will reduce my aileron ground trim setting and see how that works out. I did not understand that rudder trimming should go before aielron trimming.

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Flying the Bf-109 hands-free?

 

I said earlier that I can fly the Bf-109 hands-free. I need to add something to make that a fully true statement. Because today I tried some different ground trim settings and I could not fly hands-free. The problem was not rolling however: the beast kept raising its nose even with elevators trimmed fully nose-down. This was embarrassing because I had said I can fly hands-free.

And then I realized that I was flying with my native Mongoos T-50 stick, while earlier I had my TM WH grip in the T-50 base. So I quickly swapped grips again and flew with the TM WH grip in the T-50 base. And yes, I could fly hands-free again. This is because the TM WH grip is much heavier than the T-50 grip and makes the stick lean slightly forward (if the spring is not too tight), shifting the neutral position slightly forward. This makes it possible to trim the Bf-109 for level flight.

Even if some people criticise me for an unrealistic set-up - I love it!

LeCuvier

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I use the settings in the images below. This allows me to cruise hands-off at around 500km/h and 1.4 ata with the plane keeping the same heading without any rudder input.

 

As you can see, i also adjusted the pitch curve so the plane maintains level flight in the conditions mentioned above with elevator trim set to 0. That's why the center position is offset a little (43% compared to the usual 50%). For take-off i use full nose-down trim though.

 

For different speeds or power settings you have to compensate with the controls, but it doesn't need too much aileron to keep it horizontal. It does require a bit of work on the rudder if you change the power setting.

set109_1.jpg.7790253d752666ad045400417827169f.jpg

pitch_109.jpg.b0989e96ca89823028fba592dd946b7c.jpg

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  • 3 months later...

We had a Luftwaffe veteran pilot who emigrated here to Ottawa, Canada after the war. He had flown 109s on the Eastern front. He said that the biggest problem with the late-war 109s came from flying them out of rough adhoc grass airfields, due to the narrow undercarriage, and that there were a lot of accidents due to that factor. I suspect that spitfires also had high accident rates operating from such fields.

Having just acquired the DCS 109-K I was prepared to wrestle a fire-breathing torque monster, but I have been very happily surprised to find that it is a pleasant handling, responsive, balanced and tractable aircraft. I enjoy flying it very much. but then, I am using nice concrete airfields with runways to take-off and land in DCS. The tendency to roll slightly to right is not bothersome. Both the DCS Spit IX and P51-D require hands-on at all times, too. This is entirely realistic. These aircraft are not airliners.

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