[CAN NOT REPRODUCE]AUTO Bombing algo broken

Hey LastRifleRound, Laser ranging doesn't work at the moment, maybe that's why your aiming point is off even using PTRK

Avro, I can't believe I didn't think of using WPDSG before to eliminate it as a variable before. I have done so with the next series of tracks and came up with what I believe is going on.

Reviewing your tracks, I noticed you were bombing a completely different target in a different area. Since you and I are essentially bombing on coordinates, I figured that probably didn't matter.

I noticed, you were also bombing in completely different atmo. I know I've had issues in the Viggen with barometric pressure not being read right, and I thought it was a Viggen thing, but I thought, what if it's an API thing?

I have tracks 1-3, bombing in below 0. I changed to release 4 bombs from 4 pylons simultaneously, to make it VERY obvious where the center of the WEZ is over multiple drops.

You can see, the drops are consistently short. There is never a single bomb beyond the target, meaning it isn't dispersion.

The next two tracks, I change to July and 22 degrees. Notice the WEZ has now shifted forward. Just like it does in the Viggen. The altitude exacerbates the effect, but is not the cause. The algorithm is not compensating for atmospheric pressure correctly. The longer the bombs are in the air, the more this problem can present itself. The colder it is, the shorter the drop. The warmer, up to some minimus, the more "normal" the drop. Tracks 4 and 5 I'm able to achieve similar results to Avro's tracks.

Thoughts?

wpdsg_1.trk

wpdsg_2.trk

wpdsg_3.trk

wpdsg_4.trk

wpdsg_5.trk

Avro, I can't believe I didn't think of using WPDSG before to eliminate it as a variable before. I have done so with the next series of tracks and came up with what I believe is going on.

 

Reviewing your tracks, I noticed you were bombing a completely different target in a different area. Since you and I are essentially bombing on coordinates, I figured that probably didn't matter.

 

I noticed, you were also bombing in completely different atmo. I know I've had issues in the Viggen with barometric pressure not being read right, and I thought it was a Viggen thing, but I thought, what if it's an API thing?

 

I have tracks 1-3, bombing in below 0. I changed to release 4 bombs from 4 pylons simultaneously, to make it VERY obvious where the center of the WEZ is over multiple drops.

 

You can see, the drops are consistently short. There is never a single bomb beyond the target, meaning it isn't dispersion.

 

The next two tracks, I change to July and 22 degrees. Notice the WEZ has now shifted forward. Just like it does in the Viggen. The altitude exacerbates the effect, but is not the cause. The algorithm is not compensating for atmospheric pressure correctly. The longer the bombs are in the air, the more this problem can present itself. The colder it is, the shorter the drop. The warmer, up to some minimus, the more "normal" the drop. Tracks 4 and 5 I'm able to achieve similar results to Avro's tracks.

 

Thoughts?

So, I took your first trk, removed the redundant waypoints, same quantity and multiple as you, and again, at 9k level flight there was not a problem.

bomb 2 no tpod.trk

Avro, I can't believe I didn't think of using WPDSG before to eliminate it as a variable before. I have done so with the next series of tracks and came up with what I believe is going on.

 

Reviewing your tracks, I noticed you were bombing a completely different target in a different area. Since you and I are essentially bombing on coordinates, I figured that probably didn't matter.

 

I noticed, you were also bombing in completely different atmo. I know I've had issues in the Viggen with barometric pressure not being read right, and I thought it was a Viggen thing, but I thought, what if it's an API thing?

 

I have tracks 1-3, bombing in below 0. I changed to release 4 bombs from 4 pylons simultaneously, to make it VERY obvious where the center of the WEZ is over multiple drops.

 

You can see, the drops are consistently short. There is never a single bomb beyond the target, meaning it isn't dispersion.

 

The next two tracks, I change to July and 22 degrees. Notice the WEZ has now shifted forward. Just like it does in the Viggen. The altitude exacerbates the effect, but is not the cause. The algorithm is not compensating for atmospheric pressure correctly. The longer the bombs are in the air, the more this problem can present itself. The colder it is, the shorter the drop. The warmer, up to some minimus, the more "normal" the drop. Tracks 4 and 5 I'm able to achieve similar results to Avro's tracks.

 

Thoughts?

Yeah, I'm willing to say there's a problem now. However, I'm not exactly sure what's causing it. I've attached tracks showing an assortment of conditions....

Level drops at both 20000ft and 10000ft, both at either 0 degrees C and 30 degrees C. All other atmospheric conditions constant between the tests. (Airspeed at release is probably a variable, but minimal)

The 10k drops are spot on accurate at both temps, the 20000ft are consistently short at both temps. (I've done further tests, not included as tracks that routinely show short drops as well.)

The time of fall is the culprit in some way, as if the calculation is off slightly once the time of fall goes over a certain range.

Also included are 45 degree Dive tests in AUTO, which unfortunately show short drop as well.

I did a steep CCIP dive from high alt as well, that dropped short I recall........so not AUTO exclusively.

I'm pretty sure this might have changed recently. I recall getting very accurate results from high alt in AUTO high angle dive bombing in the past.

How much this all matters is up for debate? I was inclined to say not much, since level releases in AUTO are not very authentic, unless PGM. However, if AUTO dive releases from high alt aren't accurate either, it would be nice to have it looked at ED.

AUTO test 20k 0c.trk

AUTO test 20k 30c.trk

AUTO test 10k 0c.trk

AUTO test 10k 30c.trk

AUTO test 45dive 16k.trk

Yeah, I'm willing to say there's a problem now. However, I'm not exactly sure what's causing it. I've attached tracks showing an assortment of conditions....

 

Level drops at both 20000ft and 10000ft, both at either 0 degrees C and 30 degrees C. All other atmospheric conditions constant between the tests. (Airspeed at release is probably a variable, but minimal)

 

The 10k drops are spot on accurate at both temps, the 20000ft are consistently short at both temps. (I've done further tests, not included as tracks that routinely show short drops as well.)

 

The time of fall is the culprit in some way, as if the calculation is off slightly once the time of fall goes over a certain range.

 

Also included are 45 degree Dive tests in AUTO, which unfortunately show short drop as well.

I did a steep CCIP dive from high alt as well, that dropped short I recall........so not AUTO exclusively.

I'm pretty sure this might have changed recently. I recall getting very accurate results from high alt in AUTO high angle dive bombing in the past.

 

How much this all matters is up for debate? I was inclined to say not much, since level releases in AUTO are not very authentic, unless PGM. However, if AUTO dive releases from high alt aren't accurate either, it would be nice to have it looked at ED.

Agreed. High alt dive in AUTO is the only safe and accurate way to deliver dumb bombs if the target has any decent point defenses.

Agreed. High alt dive in AUTO is the only safe and accurate way to deliver dumb bombs if the target has any decent point defenses.

If I'm confined to dumb bombs, I'd rather come in very low, fast as hell and loft the bombs over the hill. Another option is continue low and fast for level drop with retarded bombs, 2, 3 jets from different directions.

Does DCS use an online hotfixing system? It seems the bomb dynamics have completely changed, though no patch has dropped. Dropping 4 mk83's at once is routinely causing the bombs to collide with one another in mid-air, sometimes almost immediately, blowing my own jet out of the sky. I've dropped 4 at a time hundreds of times and never had this issue.

The times when the bombs don't collide with one another. I'm getting accurate hits both level and at dive angles less than 10 degrees at so far up to 14k. This is absolutely bizarre. I've taken to dropping two pairs with 50 foot spacing and that ameliorates the issue.

Does DCS employ such a system? Is it possible the drag index fixes are passed on to the software at login, not requiring the download of an actual patch? I know many titles do this, but I didn't think DCS did. I honestly don't know what else could be different.

Does DCS use an online hotfixing system? It seems the bomb dynamics have completely changed, though no patch has dropped. Dropping 4 mk83's at once is routinelyMight causing the bombs to collide with one another in mid-air, sometimes almost immediately, blowing my own jet out of the sky. I've dropped 4 at a time hundreds of times and never had this issueiggt .

 

The times when the bombs don't collide with one another. I'm getting accurate hits both level and at dive angles less than 10 degrees at so far up to 14k. This is absolutely bizarre. I've taken to dropping two pairs with 50 foot spacing and that ameliorates the issue.

 

Does DCS employ such a system? Is it possible the drag index fixes are passed on to the software at login, not requiring the download of an actual patch? I know many titles do this, but I didn't think DCS did. I honestly don't know what else could be different.

Have you got a stable install you can do some testing on?

I have, will do today if there’s time.

Have you got a stable install you can do some testing on?

 

I have, will do today if there’s time.

No, OB only I'm afraid.

I'm pleased with the perceived changes, just not sure what happened. I kept my tests pretty constant. I'm getting great bombing results now. It's just if hotfixes are being applied (particularly with drag indexes) us beta people need to know for testing purposes.

Ok, not sure where to post this as this is an A10 track, but I ran the same mission with the A10, targeting a building using a waypoint as well as the TGP. Both lead to overshooting bombs in a dive every time. I tried lasing, TMS forward long then lasing again multiple times until drop, and also just once before launch. Same result every time.

Something went wrong when the drag indexes were updated, and the bombing algos weren't updated or something else is afoot.

Please, in response to this, if you don't follow my procedures, it's ok to say you were able to hit using a different set of processes, but please also explain what I did wrong if you thing I SHOULD have overshot. Otherwise, there could still be a bug, and what you have discovered is a workaround, not proof that there isn't a bug.

A10_Dive_issue.trk

Ok, not sure where to post this as this is an A10 track, but I ran the same mission with the A10, targeting a building using a waypoint as well as the TGP. Both lead to overshooting bombs in a dive every time. I tried lasing, TMS forward long then lasing again multiple times until drop, and also just once before launch. Same result every time.

 

Something went wrong when the drag indexes were updated, and the bombing algos weren't updated or something else is afoot.

 

Please, in response to this, if you don't follow my procedures, it's ok to say you were able to hit using a different set of processes, but please also explain what I did wrong if you thing I SHOULD have overshot. Otherwise, there could still be a bug, and what you have discovered is a workaround, not proof that there isn't a bug.

Not had time to look at your track, but CCRP dive bombing in the A10 has always been wonky.

I remember doing tests many many years ago when it came out (so 2010-11). The CCRP dive drops always dropped long. Only reliable impacts were from level flight. CCIP doesn't suffer, at least it didn't....

Pretty sure this is an error in implementation, but it's been almost 10 years and counting.

So I'm getting long drops every time in the Hornet right now level. Once you dive +25 deg bombs are dead on. Time of fall only effects dispersion, not impact point, so we're back to the computation being wrong. I did 20 drops in a row, level at 6k, all long using wpdsg. Did 5 in a row starting a 25 deg dive from 20k, all hits. Latest OB and I don't use any mods.

as a side note, I also encountered the problem with 4x mk83s colliding when released together and blowing me up at low altitude.

Setting an interval greater than 1 or 2 feet fixes it.... but still weird.