Hornet Nellis Aproaches

So I have been messing with a Nellis mission, running real procedures and approaches I found. The mission is set up using the FTTRY Low departure to Range 63, and MINTT recovery. After running the approaches and trying to stay within the limits I find I’m having a hard time turning within the confines described. Running the overhead pattern with an east break for 3R I can’t seem to turn final north of Lake Mead Blvd as described. I’m even flying 275KIAS which is under the 300KIAS prior to the break, then pulling hard and slowing down to approach speed fast. But even slow and dirty I find the turn to final is very tight. Anyone have any tips or info on how pilots do the Nellis pattern in the hornet

Are you flying the DUCK re-entry?

v6,

boNes

No just overhead to the break, which is east for 3R. The turn to base and final is supposed to be north of Lake Meade Blvd but those turns are tight and the final leg is basically 5 seconds long at approach speed for the Hornet.

no problems here. Look for Lake Mead BLVD while on the downwind. That makes it easy to judge when to start your base turn. Time to turn so you're parallel the road just on the north side, keep the turn going, and look at the runway to judge the line up.

I was basically lined up for 3R at 200' AGL.

very nice approach and landing.

When are you starting your break? You might need to wait until further upwind to give yourself enough space to turn downwind, configure, and slow to Approach AOA. Leave 3500' abeam the touchdown zone. Look for the BLVD, then make the turn as appropriate.

I’ll have to try and practice after work. Are you flying a carrier break or an AF break?

I made the break at the numbers and still had plenty of time to make the turn, remain north of the road, and line up for final well before my Radio Altimeter alert sounded at 200ft AGL.

Why would I make a carrier break for an airfield?

Why would I make an AF break in a USN jet? The procedures you posted tell you exactly how to perform the break.. it's probably best to call it a "Nellis" break :)

Are you sure you've read the roads right?

Flying a perfectly normal (as far as I'm aware) approach doesn't even take me south of Carey Ave.

Edit: Attached image looks about right, no? Downwind leg 1.1nm abeam the runway. Final turn starts with the runway threshold 45 degrees behind the left wing. Final approach is about 1nm. Lake Mead Blvd is miles away.

Edit2: I am an idiot and have just read *EAST* break :D I can apprecaite that makes things rather tighter, but I've flipped the image and it still looks very doable.

My understanding was F/A-18 drivers perform a carrier break even at a field to keep up the skills. I thought that would hold even at Nellis.

As for reading the roads, I watched the track and turned too early but still the turn seemed tight. Not sure if I just need more practice or if I ended up on the downwind too close to the field.

On a side note I figured out how to make an ATIS radio station for my missions using speech to text. Actually sounds just like a real ATIS.

Here's a track. Not perfect by any means, but I reckon it's reasonable enough.

NellisApproach03R_001.trk

Can you explain what you mean by "carrier break" as I can find no solid definition of this? I don't understand what you believe separates a land based overhead from a sea based one....

I have a feeling 3R isn't used often for landing as the east break has a hill and the compressed final, but I could be wrong. Unfortunately the publicly available information on visual and instrument approaches doesn't give much insight. I'd love to talk to someone who could say which approaches were standard, basic ops stuff like that. Right now for south range I have the FTTYR departure to the ranges and then returning MINTT. Maybe I should do DREAM low up to the SALLY corridor. I really want to try some Veterans or Park night approaches but first I have to figure out this break. I feel like to make the turn I have to pull back hard on the stick to make the final which doesn't seem right. If anyone has any info on Nellis Ops let me know, and any tracks for approaches or vids would be great. I really want to make a F/A-18 campaign with ATIS and custom radio calls for NELLIS, Approach, and Range ops.

http://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=424

Ginus,

this document is 165 pages long, and includes images you posted. It appears official, and I have found a link to an identical version on Nellis' own website. It has the information you seek, and IMVHO is required to enjoy the Nevada map.

But your difficulties with this specific arrival are another matter. The procedure is plenty detailed to allow some of us to accomplish it. Could you post a track of your troubles with this approach so that we may see it and give you pointers?

Yeah I have that document, it’s what I’ve been using to try and model the approaches. I would just like to know which approaches are used most often for which airspace, some more down in the weeds details.

I’m going to run the 3R approach and break tonight and see how I do. I’ll post a track if I’m still having issues.

I would just like to know which approaches are used most often for which airspace, some more down in the weeds details.

My understanding was F/A-18 drivers perform a carrier break even at a field to keep up the skills. I thought that would hold even at Nellis.

Nope, Nellis would be per the -250 local procedures. All aircraft have to comply with them regardless of if they’re airforce, Navy, or non-US.

Ginsu. I attached a mission for you I made for the MINTT approach. Everything is laid out and measured using the charts. Its a pretty aggressive pattern which is why Im guessing its not used as much as a west break.

Just remember this is a Air Force Base. Not a Navy base. The airfield sets the patterns and approaches, not the agency. So, this is AF rules. fly directly over the active runway, break over the numbers etc. Naval air fields and or during ground based carrier training ya, you fly as if you were recovering on the boat. Not here though.

Most all military VFR landings are aggressive. Basically most flying is aggressive. You aren't out there flying big civil DME arcs. Turn hard and pull G's. My virtual squadron I fly with has a couple retired Air Force and Navy pilots. They developed all the SOP's and training material. And ya if you are flying like they do in real life it takes a bit to get used to flying the jet that hard all the time. Hope this helps.

Edit: I forgot to mention on the Upwind. I have it laid out at about 1.1 DME abeam from LSV12. You can go wider if you need to. The procedure says to just stay within 4 DME of LSV 12 (or 3, now I cant remember).

NTTR MINTT Recovery.miz

KTFBGB,

Here's a modified version of your very nice mission. Your waypoints are pretty close, but I used the L/L coordinates to more accurately place them, or moved them so that they gave correct Magnetic Headings as instructed by the procedure (specifically the 120ºM after CRAIG).

My understanding is that a break "at the numbers" indicates at the runway threshold (numbers), not the opposite ("far-end") threshold. This has been adjusted too.

Your mission is set pretty early, which might make it difficult to see all the visual reporting points/references. I've advanced time by 6 hours. I've also added smoke markers to identify key landmarks with some timed scripting.

Observe the note, "FOR USE UNDER DAY/VMC ONLY"

I also started the mission at FL250, with some training ordinance on the wingtips. This will require some trimming at mission start, but can give more time to fence out and gives more of a descent from higher level at the start.

The terrain E of Nellis is no factor. The restriction on the final turn does take some effort to comply with, but the procedure can be flown all day long no problems.

... I know that because I've been flying it all day long adjusting this LOL :D:megalol::music_whistling:

Improved MINTT Recovery.miz

Awesome missions, I'll definitely try them both. I spent all last night trying to get http://www.476vfightergroup.com NTTR mission flyable. I have a pretty decent rig but even with just the 60 or 70 ranges loaded it chugged along at 25-35fps in VR. I have PD set to 1.5 and MSAA set to 2x. I'm going to tweak some things tonight to see if I can get it to play better because the map and objects are awesome. I have a i7-7700k and a watercooled 1080ti. ROG motherboard but I'm not running on a SSD so maybe I should look into that upgrade. I did fly the pattern a few times last night and found that I was either too tight turning base to final or not tight enough. Not sure if it should be a smooth single turn or a turn onto base then another turn to final. If the consensus is to land per the Air Force break I practice that more, though I may be getting rusty on my carrier approaches. I haven't done one all week that's been decent.

KTFBGB,

 

 

Here's a modified version of your very nice mission. Your waypoints are pretty close, but I used the L/L coordinates to more accurately place them, or moved them so that they gave correct Magnetic Headings as instructed by the procedure (specifically the 120ºM after CRAIG).

My understanding is that a break "at the numbers" indicates at the runway threshold (numbers), not the opposite ("far-end") threshold. This has been adjusted too.

 

 

Your mission is set pretty early, which might make it difficult to see all the visual reporting points/references. I've advanced time by 6 hours. I've also added smoke markers to identify key landmarks with some timed scripting.

 

 

Observe the note, "FOR USE UNDER DAY/VMC ONLY"

 

 

 

I also started the mission at FL250, with some training ordinance on the wingtips. This will require some trimming at mission start, but can give more time to fence out and gives more of a descent from higher level at the start.

 

 

The terrain E of Nellis is no factor. The restriction on the final turn does take some effort to comply with, but the procedure can be flown all day long no problems.

... I know that because I've been flying it all day long adjusting this LOL :D:megalol::music_whistling:

Thanks for the improvements. Ya I was not thinking about magvar for some reason when I put it together. Thanks for tweaking it. I’ll check it out in the morning. I was pushing the limits I know on daylight. I was trying to keep the sun out of it for folks but probably not a factor. Great idea on the smokes!

So I ran the approach some last night. Following the break as on the charts I ended up with a single turn to final 180 degrees and a short 5-10 second final for line up. Felt like a very aggressive approach. Not sure what it should look like. Anyone have a vid that shows and actual approach. Other than that it went well, stayed within the limits without issue

Glad you got it sorted out Ginsu! Yeah compared to piston or jet airliners it's an aggressive approach for sure. There are videos of F-16 landings on Youtube and they regularly pull 2Gs in the traffic pattern no problem. Yes a continuous downwind-final turn is what I've been using with success, as there's really no room for a straight base. That's okay though as the manuals for both the F/A-18C (Carrier and FCLP) and F-16C show these constant turning circuits. I don't think there's normally enough airspace anywhere for a rectangular pattern in these aircraft.

My first problem was timing the base turn to stay north of the road, but that was quickly resolved. My latest challenge is managing the descent and turn rate to not fly "through" the extended centerline. I find that my descent rate is initially excessive and then shallows out as I increase my bank angle through the last 90º of turn. Despite the fast pace of the approach I need to turn even harder at the start and work on a more even descent angle to the runway.

This is a great activity for the Nevada map, and these procedures really are helpful in getting the best out of it :thumbup:

Looking at and reading the information packet, we can tell the initial portion of the arrival has us thread a needle between civilian traffic likely above us and the mountains below at Gass Peak. Then we have to stay out of the civilian traffic moving across the Las Vegas area and North Las Vegas airport. We are then in a position to safely join the flow of traffic into Nellis. As we turn downwind and look for the Lake Mead Blvd., I know that transport jets are (likely) on takeoff out of McCarren Intl. ahead of me, and I can see houses below. There are more houses south of the road, and more businesses to the north. This turn restriction probably has both an airspace/traffic and noise abatement aspect to it's existence. As I get low I can see the industrial park below me, and I know the houses are behind me. When I power up my engine because I've botched the turn, I can imagine the people in those houses having to endure the roar of my engine a little bit louder than normal. That probably causes some tension.

Procedures like these really bring life to the city in the Nevada map. Nellis turns from a simple air base on the edge of Las Vegas into one pushed tightly against political, geographical, and airspace boundaries. Except for the north... there's really not a lot of room here. Without accurate charts and procedures it's really hard to put military ops into similar context in both PG and the Black Sea maps.

I appreciate the Red Flag campaigns for introducing me to these procedures, and thanks to the 476th for uploading the Nellis procedures that we can practice and learn from.

This is why I love this community. We got to help out someone who needed it and learn some new stuff in the process. This sim offers so much depth and realism if you actually use it to its full potential.

We just spent 2 days working out how to fly 1 approach, and never dropped any ordinance. I decided i better fly it in the viper as well. I never even thought about missing weapons or systems in either aircraft and was completely immersed in something as simple as flying a proper approach.

Ginsu don’t worry about being exactly at the points described. If you’re doing an overhead break, that means you are in VFR. As long as you can see the places you can deviate a bit. Just worry about hitting the correct numbers: 1500 AGL, Pull 1% of speed in G (350KNT=3.5G pull) get to the 45 on the down wind, turn and drop altitude. The rest will just kind of take care of itself.

This is why I love this community. We got to help out someone who needed it and learn some new stuff in the process. This sim offers so much depth and realism if you actually use it to its full potential.

 

We just spent 2 days working out how to fly 1 approach, and never dropped any ordinance. I decided i better fly it in the viper as well. I never even thought about missing weapons or systems in either aircraft and was completely immersed in something as simple as flying a proper approach.

The sim offers some more satisfaction beside dropping bombs.

I love doing approachs and departures as the charts or ATC recommends. It is so much fun.

Awesome missions, I'll definitely try them both. I spent all last night trying to get http://www.476vfightergroup.com NTTR mission flyable. I have a pretty decent rig but even with just the 60 or 70 ranges loaded it chugged along at 25-35fps in VR. I have PD set to 1.5 and MSAA set to 2x. I'm going to tweak some things tonight to see if I can get it to play better because the map and objects are awesome. I have a i7-7700k and a watercooled 1080ti. ROG motherboard but I'm not running on a SSD so maybe I should look into that upgrade. I did fly the pattern a few times last night and found that I was either too tight turning base to final or not tight enough. Not sure if it should be a smooth single turn or a turn onto base then another turn to final. If the consensus is to land per the Air Force break I practice that more, though I may be getting rusty on my carrier approaches. I haven't done one all week that's been decent.

Turn off Tacview if you have it enabled when running the 476th NTTR missions - the number of ground objects severely degrades recording performance.