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LABELs SYSTEM - Not really helping, IMO


philstyle

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The new Labels system being trialed in Open Beta appears to have some problems which need to be addressed, I think.

 

1. The system has caused all previous labels-mods (via using a labels.lua file int he mission archive) to fail. For those of us with higher-resolution capable systems, this means that aircraft visibility is extremely poor.

I know that AI can see and react to me long before I can see them. ED should at least seek parity between the AI pilot visual range and player visual range.

 

2. The "dot" setting does not actually populate with a dot, but rather uses "^" symbol or similar. It's not a suitable substitute for the labels modding (as mentioned in 1 above). Furthermore, the symbols seem to colour red/blue, rather than remain grey/black.

 

The player base has previously developed solutions for the long-medium range visibility problems with custom labels.lua files. These files - especially the one used by EEKZ on the Burning Skies server had their own co-ordinates for where the symbol should be located, at what ranges the symbols would appear and an acceptable use of transparency/ opacity at various ranges. It is somewhat surprising that ED simply hasn't capitalized on this work that the player base has already done, and implemented this mod as their "dot" system for labels.

 

As it stands right now (in both single player and multiplayer), I can only really fly ground attack, or air-to-air that is beyond visual range. I don't own any BVR capable modules.

The visibility problems (at higher resolutions) are solely responsible for essentially removing playability.


Edited by philstyle

On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/philstylenz

Storm of War WW2 server website: https://stormofwar.net/

 

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We can edit the new label.lua system to have it exactly the same as we had before in our label mods, but it doesnt work when included into the miz file. The original label.lua just overwrites what is in the miz file.

 

I just recreated my smeared label mod, using the new label.lua as base, and just starting from scratch again, and it works as intended, when I have it in my Saved Games folder. But running it from a miz file and no label.lua in Saved Games doesnt work, it will just use the original label.lua. That is the real problem imo, cause we cant use modified labels for servers / hosting.

 

Attached is my smeared label file. Is just a single dot, black (dark grey) with a blur pass. At first glance it might seem like there is nothing there, but toggle labels on/off (LSHIFT+F10) and it becomes visible. Intention is just to aid spotting a little bit. I dont like having sharp dot. Navy and weapons dont have anything, only air and ground.

This is made in 1080p, so cant say if this works well for 1440p or even 4k. Can just increase the font size in the label file, if it needs to be bigger.

Edit: Oh, and it uses the dot for all label settings: Dot, Abb, Full.

 

font_properties =  {"DejaVuLGCSans.ttf", 9, 0, 0, 2}

 

9 is the font size. Try 11 or 13 (original label size) or 15, if 9 is too small.

Labels.lua


Edited by Knock-Knock

- Jack of many DCS modules, master of none.

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Knock-Knock you are correct. Adding a label.lua (with the new format) to a mission archive no longer appears to work, especially for multiplayer servers which wish to populate the same set of icons out to all clients. I'm in the process of trying to get a labels.lua working on a server now (it is based on the new format and looks a lot like yours), but the client settings seem to be taking priority over the server's labels.lua.

 

Even more concerning is that it seems that if a client joins with a custom labels.lua they can over-ride the server's labels system. I just did that myself, by joining my own server from another machine with its own labels.lua. The client side mod over-rode what I saw, making it different from what I saw when I joined the server without client-side "modding"

 

This is further frustrated by the fact that there are now all of the following possible settings to control icons/ labels in one way or another.

 

Mission options set to Force labels (2 options)

Mission options when forces on has further options (3)

- for a total of 4 possibilities within the mission options)

 

Server has labels to FULL, ABBREV, DOT or NONE

-for a total of 4 possibiliites

 

SERVER has a labels.lua saved in its config/view folders

- for a total of 2 possibilties

 

CLIENT has labels to FULL, ABBREV, DOT or NONE

-for a total of 4 possibiliites

 

CLIENT has a labels.lua saved in its config/view folders

- for a total of 2 possibilties

 

Multiplying these permutations I see 4 x 4 x 2 x 4 x 2 possible configurations here.

That's 250+ possible combinations!

 

We have next to no documentation on how this all is supposed to work, nor do we have any real information from ED regarding what the hierarchy of options is. I don't have the time to review every possible configuration from the 320 offered in order to determine what each will result in for a client joining a server.


Edited by philstyle

On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/philstylenz

Storm of War WW2 server website: https://stormofwar.net/

 

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  • ED Team

What I am feeling/seeing, or would like to see, and let's see if we cross paths here.

 

A monotone/colour option for the dot/symbol. So instead of the red or blue that give away what side the dot is, a black/grey option for all, makes more sense, so you can spot a target, but like RL, you have to get up on it to ID it (least older era fights).

 

Control, who has control of what is seen. in MP the Server should have 100% control, and either allow or not allow users to use or pick their label type.

 

Control part 2, ME/Server should have control over when a dot is used, so say you can have only aircraft labels, but not weapons or not ground units (or whatever combo you want).

 

The 4K/VR angle... work still needs to be done on how the labels scale/change when in VR or 4k. 4K/VR dots are too much for standard resolutions, but standard res dots are not enough for 4K/VR.

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I really feel this problem too! Pls address it!

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A monotone/colour option for the dot/symbol. So instead of the red or blue that give away what side the dot is, a black/grey option for all, makes more sense, so you can spot a target, but like RL, you have to get up on it to ID it (least older era fights).

 

Yes. Agreed.

 

Control, who has control of what is seen. in MP the Server should have 100% control, and either allow or not allow users to use or pick their label type.

 

Exactly.

 

Control part 2, ME/Server should have control over when a dot is used, so say you can have only aircraft labels, but not weapons or not ground units (or whatever combo you want).

 

Yes.

 

The 4K/VR angle... work still needs to be done on how the labels scale/change when in VR or 4k. 4K/VR dots are too much for standard resolutions, but standard res dots are not enough for 4K/VR.

 

Indeed. 1440p resolution sits somewhere in the no-mans-land between these two. But it certainly is not as bad as it is for 4k/ VR players.

 

 

I would add one more thing,

That it might be possible to NOT have labels show through canopy etc...

 

---

Here is some code that has been used in labels.lua files on a few servers, it was developed (I understand) initially by Eekz who runs the Burning Skies WW2 server.

This code has quite nice dot labeling for AIRCRAFT.

It works well with respect to semi-realistic spotting range, provides good levels of transparency to make distant dots blend out into the background AND it also puts the dots in the correct place relative to the aircraft model.

 

 

font_properties =  {"DejaVuLGCSans.ttf", 15, 0, 0, 0}
AirFormat = {
--[distance]	= {format , alignment,color_blending_k,opacity,shift_pixels_x, shift_in_pixels_y}
[500]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.0, 0, -5},
[600]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.02, 0, -5},
[700]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.05, 0, -5},
[800]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.08, 0, -5},
[900]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.09, 0, -5},
[1000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.15, 0, -5},
[1100]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.2, 0, -5},
[1200]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.28, 0, -5},
[1300]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.3, 0, -5},
[1400]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.3, 0, -5},
[1500]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.3, 0, -5},
[1600]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.3, 0, -5},
[1700]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.35, 0, -5},
[1800]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.35, 0, -5},
[1900]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.4, 0, -5},
[2000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.4, 0, -5},
[3000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.45, 0, -5},
[4000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.45, 0, -5},
[5000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.45, 0, -5},
[6000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.45, 0, -5},
[7000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.4, 0, -5},
[8000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.35, 0, -5},
[9000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.3, 0, -5},
[10000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.25, 0, -5},
[11000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.2, 0, -5},
[12000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.1, 0, -5},
[13000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.1, 0, -5},
[14000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.08, 0, -5},
[15000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.05, 0, -5},
[16000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0.03, 0, -5},
[17000]	= {"˙","CenterCenter",1, 0, 0, -5},
[80000]	= {"","CenterCenter",1, 1, 0, -5},
}


Edited by philstyle

On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/philstylenz

Storm of War WW2 server website: https://stormofwar.net/

 

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The 4K/VR angle... work still needs to be done on how the labels scale/change when in VR or 4k. 4K/VR dots are too much for standard resolutions, but standard res dots are not enough for 4K/VR.

The thing is, 4K and VR dots and text size in labels (or menu text size, FPS counter text size) require different sizes to each other.

I run DCS mainly in VR, but when I am learning a module (or need outside world communications), I run it in 4K.

Now, for each of these scenarios, I have to enable/disable different mods to adjust the size of the fore-mentioned text sizes appropriately for the 2 scenarios.

It would be so nice not to have to do this.

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I am encouraged by NineLine's response in this thread and I look forward to the implementation of the solution by the engineering team at ED.

 

It cannot be stated enough, that this is a critical path item for many who wish to fly without text labels on and try to recreate engagement scenarios with high fidelity and realism aspects. This is true for both the single player and multiplayer scenarios of course.

 

The community built label mod (solely aimed at addressing the 'contact spotting' aspect) has been until now, a must have. It is especially critical flying in any dog-fighting type engagement be it WW2 and Korean to name two obvious scenarios.

 

Post #6 seems to capture the essense of the need and communicates that the issue is understood.

 

It now remains to be implemented into the game and again, I add my voice and ask for this feature to be ranked as a top priority for this beta release.

 

I appreciate there is a full schedule for this beta already, howeever, it cannot be unestimated just how much this particular issue undermines the experience for so many.

 

S!

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Two suggestion.

1) I think a very important option would be to allow the MP server to enforce(!) it's labels.lua.

It would ensure that the mission appearance can be consistent for all participants.

 

2) I love the option to set the labels to a simple dark "dot", yet currently it still requires heavy adjustment to the dot-symbol, its color, blending, blurr etc. to realize a basic dark round dot and make sure it does not stick out from the sky like a sore thumb.

 

For No. 2 the communities adjusted labels.lua give a very good impression of what the default "dot" setting should look like. Eekz and Philstyle already showcase very good and non-intrusive adaptions of the system.

I am currently tweak around with a version merged from two label mods and the new lua. One thing that is particular great is the blurr you can add to the font. That helps merge the dot with the background.

 

From my point of view if there is a need for a red ^ or a blue ~ that should be a separate option.

Shagrat

 

- Flying Sims since 1984 -:pilotfly:

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Today's update mentioned labels.

The english is bad so I can't work out exactly what is supposed to have changed.

 

The DOT is now no longer a "^", but has become a "-". The "DOT ONLY" option still has coloured red/ blue labels.

 

I'm trying to force server settings with a labels.lua inside the mission archive, but no luck so far.

On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/philstylenz

Storm of War WW2 server website: https://stormofwar.net/

 

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  • ED Team

I am trying to report the issue with server settings not being enforced. From what I hear its old missions, so I am hoping the hotfix helps that so let me know.

 

Not sure why the symbol changed on the labels, but I am talking to the devs about all things labels right now.

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I am trying to report the issue with server settings not being enforced. From what I hear its old missions, so I am hoping the hotfix helps that so let me know.

 

Not sure why the symbol changed on the labels, but I am talking to the devs about all things labels right now.

 

OK thanks.

I'm planning to do some more testing over the next 2 days. If I find anyting interesting I will provide notes here.

On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/philstylenz

Storm of War WW2 server website: https://stormofwar.net/

 

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Some further test results.

 

4XvV2Ho.jpg

 

This image shows that the in-mission labels setting is at the top of the heirarchy now, with respect to what any client sees when joining a multiplayer server. This is good.

 

However, on the down side, placing a custom labels.lua (i.e. the labels mod) in the mission archive does NOT force on any clients any more. Only the in-mission setting is force.

This is not good.

 

If there is something we need to do to get custom labels working again in multiplayer, can ED please let us know?

On YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/philstylenz

Storm of War WW2 server website: https://stormofwar.net/

 

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most important improvement to the labels system would be to make them be obstructed by the parts of your aircraft. they should vanish behind any surface which is not glass imo.

 

I've requested it, but dont know what is involved, I asked for an option to switch it on and off.

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My preference for labels is show through the body of the plane. Imagine the Su-25T, you have almost none existent visibility to the outside world.

+Labels are visual reference points. It's not fair to disappear the reference point during a turn.


Edited by discwalker
+

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My preference for labels is show through the body of the plane. Imagine the Su-25T, you have almost none existent visibility to the outside world.

+Labels are visual reference points. It's not fair to disappear the reference point during a turn.

That's why he said he requested an option to switch them on or off, not remove them.

Shagrat

 

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  • 2 months later...

Can't DCS just read the current main window render resolution and use that to factor the size of the dots? It knows exactly what resolution it is drawing every frame and it's written in the MonitorSetup.lua!

 

I love my 4K monitor but I feel blind even in dogfights because a 4k pixel dot on a 28" screen half a meter away from my eyes is pretty small! And I don't even need glasses yet!

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