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question about the stickforces


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talking about the stickforces a lot with my friends lately and reading through several former threads, i would like to get enlightend as to how the stickforces are programmed...which logic they follow if you so want to speak.

 

i know that Yo-Yo said repeatedly, that our dcs pilot can pull a certain amount of force...

 

but is that with 1 hand? and 1hand only all times?

 

or is that with 2 hands? and both hands at all times?

 

or is it a combination and the pilot begins to use his 2nd hand to push or pull harder after a certain threshold is reached?

if the latter is the case, what is the logic behind it? when does our pilot start to use the 2nd hand?and when does he decide to switch back to 1hand again? and how long does it take him to use the 2nd hand again once we pull our stick again harder back? i would really like to know this!


Edited by birdstrike
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talking about the stickforces a lot with my friends lately and reading through several former threads, i would like to get enlightend as to how the stickforces are programmed...which logic they follow if you so want to speak.

 

i know that Yo-Yo said repeatedly, that our dcs pilot can pull a certain amount of force...

 

but is that with 1 hand? and 1hand only all times?

 

or is that with 2 hands? and both hands at all times?

 

or is it a combination and the pilot begins to use his 2nd hand to push or pull harder after a certain threshold is reached?

if the latter is the case, what is the logic behind it? when does our pilot start to use the 2nd hand?and when does he decide to switch back to 1hand again? and how long does it take him to use the 2nd hand again once we pull our stick again harder back? i would really like to know this!

For me, this is the biggest enigma of this simulation.. I still call it a simulation..

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Yeah, it was better when stick forces weren't implemented and people complained all the time because they broke wings in every turn :lol: .

 

 

I preferred it though as I use a long stick and I could manage it on my own, but not the case for everybody.

 

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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It has nothing to do with how long your real life stick is.. The stick in the game moves slowly and the plane doesn't respond to your stick movements. It's a whole different story..

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It has nothing to do with how long your real life stick is.
Well, turns out it does if you are unable to control yourself without that stick forces simulation. Overcontrol is not only a thing in RL, in simulations happens all of the time. Setting aside realism (and geekism) questions, a long stick is way easier controlled and it was so obvious as I never broke a wing in the times people did all of the time.

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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You certainly don't understand the issue here.. just let an ED representative to answer birdstrike's questions.

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if anything it is way too conservative...

but that being said, what I find strange is that only ww2 birds have this "simulated"... i.e. I have no problem pulling 40lb (max deflection) in F18, while in 109 even half that is already a big problem for a pilot.

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if anything it is way too conservative...

but that being said, what I find strange is that only ww2 birds have this "simulated"... i.e. I have no problem pulling 40lb (max deflection) in F18, while in 109 even half that is already a big problem for a pilot.

 

Aircraft with hydraulically boosted controls have simulated stick force/feel in the real airplane and it would be sorta silly to limit the pilot by simulating stick forces that high.

 

There are several problems with trying to simulate the pilot's exertions. Where do you get the data?

 

If they are using the standard 30 lbs of force data the US typically used in WWII era flight test, that is far too low.

 

Current un-boosted controls can be certified with control forces as high as 77 lbs during go around maneuvers. I have personally flow a civilian jet certified under these rules.

 

There is a big difference between what an average man can exert with one hand in normal flight and what he can do with both hands with the adrenaline pumping.

 

80 lbs is nothing when your life depends on it.

 

 

 

 

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pmiceli, the 40lb is not a made up number as silly as it might sound to you.

 

 

As for data... there are studies publicly available which have sampled data where one can see for each type of control what can be considered acceptable avg.

However that being said, I agree with your assertion that when * hit the fan, all these fly thru the window...

 

Personally, I would not bother simulating pilot stamina the way we have now, as having lag in controls introduces PIO and makes everything even less "realistic"

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As this was a very debated topic when these stick forces were implemented for the 109, I searched and found a reply from Yo-Yo regarding the ED's philosophy behind them.

 

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2309657&postcount=48, reads:

 

 

 

"in DCS we decided to have controls movement, so control surfaces as they are in reality. That's the point. This way the simulated FM fits the real one regarding required stick movement. Of course we understood that shorter travel of the majority of game controllers will require less travels to get the same result comparing the real aircraft. Nevertheless, this model gives good feeling even if you get the real plane stick after hundreds hours in virtual plane. I had an opportunity to compare the real P-51 to its DCS twin... the feeling was that the real plane behaves exactly the same you use to feel it in DCS regardless of higher forces at the controls.

 

Excessive control forces in any simulation can be done using so called cutting force (any movement of the virtual stick are not available beyond this point) preceding with the zone of low responce agility. So, for example, you can pull the stick up to 70 kg but accurate piloting is not available since the force is higher than, say, 20-30 kg. "

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i remember this post...it still doesnt answer my questions though about 1 and 2 hands on the stick.

 

i would like to get an answer about that, as in the 109, when you're flying lets say 500kph or higher, and begin to pull your joystick completely back, first not much is going to happen and the 109 goes into a "shallow" turn. but then there is the point, where the pilot seems to all of a sudden pull way harder than the first few seconds. it feels that at this point, the virtual pilot begins to use his second arm...

 

now when this happens, the 109 begins a sharp turn, and mostly too sharp to keep that turn you wanted, so you have to reduce your pull on the stick slightly to avoid a blackout or at least a massive energy loss, ending with a stall.

 

...now we are still at high speeds....

 

if you now reduce your pull on your stick at home, even minimal, the 109 will drop its turn rate drastically down, and this feels as if the pilot decided to only need one hand again...now you only wanted to reduce that turn by a small margin, to avoid a blackout or stall, but instead the 109 goes into a "shallow" turn again...

 

but you wanted to turn hard, so you decide to pull back on the stick again...this again seems to take sometimes several seconds until the plane turns hard...

 

at least by the feels of it, it seems that the pilot does indeed switch between 1 and 2 hand flying on the stick in the 109....


Edited by birdstrike
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(...)begin to pull your joystick completely back, first not much is going to happen and the 109 goes into a "shallow" turn. but then there is the point, where the pilot seems to all of a sudden pull way harder than the first few seconds. it feels that at this point, the virtual pilot begins to use his second arm...

 

 

This is the lag effect of the virtual stick as it is catching up and thus closer it gets to your joystick position the more it feels as a sudden pull... the reason is that most of the times we will miss the intended joystick deflection, setting it to far because pitch rate feedback was lower than wanted (because of virtual lag) and when virtual stick syncs with our joystick we are overshooting wanted pitch rate, even causing a stall.

 

 

if you now reduce your pull on your stick at home, even minimal, the 109 will drop its turn rate drastically down, and this feels as if the pilot decided to only need one hand again

This is because when you go toward center stick, there is no virtual lag. Lag is applied only away from the center.


Edited by Vatikus
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i remember this post...it still doesnt answer my questions though about 1 and 2 hands on the stick.

 

i would like to get an answer about that, as in the 109, when you're flying lets say 500kph or higher, and begin to pull your joystick completely back, first not much is going to happen and the 109 goes into a "shallow" turn. but then there is the point, where the pilot seems to all of a sudden pull way harder than the first few seconds. it feels that at this point, the virtual pilot begins to use his second arm...

 

now when this happens, the 109 begins a sharp turn, and mostly too sharp to keep that turn you wanted, so you have to reduce your pull on the stick slightly to avoid a blackout or at least a massive energy loss, ending with a stall.

 

...now we are still at high speeds....

 

if you now reduce your pull on your stick at home, even minimal, the 109 will drop its turn rate drastically down, and this feels as if the pilot decided to only need one hand again...now you only wanted to reduce that turn by a small margin, to avoid a blackout or stall, but instead the 109 goes into a "shallow" turn again...

 

but you wanted to turn hard, so you decide to pull back on the stick again...this again seems to take sometimes several seconds until the plane turns hard...

 

at least by the feels of it, it seems that the pilot does indeed switch between 1 and 2 hand flying on the stick in the 109....

 

I'm very well aware of this behavior and I reckon it is silly.. it does NOT represent how the K4 is behaving in any way. We only have a handicapped plane flown by a handicapped pilot. That's all.. :(

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And I guess you all as always can say that's not a K4 (or any other DCS warbird as all of them feature this) because you have flown the real deal to say so, right?

 

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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And I guess you all as always can say that's not a K4 (or any other DCS warbird as all of them feature this) because you have flown the real deal to say so, right?

 

 

S!

Neither have Yo-Yo.. What do you want to prove..?

 

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Neither have Yo-Yo.. What do you want to prove..?
But he's an engineer with the numbers in his hand. I don't mean to prove nothing, it's just this very same conversation with regard to this or any other Bf109 subject has happened so many times here and "arguments" are usually the same with the same evidences, none at all, so changes won't ever happen that way.

 

S!

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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When someone says that is not how K4 should fly, it means primarly the piloting technique.

Most of us understand the reason why ED choose their implementation, however the side effect of it is that once you start to deviate from the cruising flight into more aerobatic, the technique is less realistic than if there would not been as much lag. That is a fact either you like it or not.

 

That being said, I doubt we will ever see a change on the implementation, so either one needs to get used to it or fly other planes/sims.

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  • ED Team

Who can read - will read. Who can understand - will understand.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=200423

 

That's all I can say.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Thank you Yo-Yo for taking time... I am sure you know that kinematics of K elevator is different, but anyways.. even if we ignore this, the main question in this topic is rather about virtual pilot's ability for achieving rate of flight stick deflection - at what threshold stick force rate cannot be matched with our joystick's? The question which follows is, how come only WW2 birds have such pilot model while jet do not in DCS? I can pull instant 18kg (max pull) in DCS F18.

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  • ED Team
Thank you Yo-Yo for taking time... I am sure you know that kinematics of K elevator is different, but anyways.. even if we ignore this, the main question in this topic is rather about virtual pilot's ability for achieving rate of flight stick deflection - at what threshold stick force rate cannot be matched with our joystick's? The question which follows is, how come only WW2 birds have such pilot model while jet do not in DCS? I can pull instant 18kg (max pull) in DCS F18.

 

If you think that there is a different equation than Archimed invented b1/b2 = f2/f1 or you can extend the 109 cockpit space for K...

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Damping versus cutting

 

I allways liked the damping method over the current cutting method of the stick forces.

But I was in the minority.

 

I know the reasons why people were against it, it doesnt have to be said again.

 

I just had a better feeling with the plane, as with active stick (not crazy active, just small probing) you felt how much you were dampened, and it gave me feedback about speed aswell.

 

Havent flown the bird much after the change, just cant get the feeling of alive plane.

 

 

I wish we could choose between the methods. thats all.


Edited by voodooman
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If you think that there is a different equation than Archimed invented b1/b2 = f2/f1 or you can extend the 109 cockpit space for K...

Hmm.. might be misunderstanding here... we are talking about pitch axis of flight stick (enough space there). In F18 when pilot pulls max deflection the force to hold that position is around 18daN for the pilot. As this can be done w/o any constraints in DCS, my question was then, if virtual pilot is the same in both cases (109 and 18 (I am not touching FC3 planes here)), what is the force when virtual pilot cannot do that and starts lagging behind our physical joystick?

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Hmm.. might be misunderstanding here... we are talking about pitch axis of flight stick (enough space there). In F18 when pilot pulls max deflection the force to hold that position is around 18daN for the pilot. As this can be done w/o any constraints in DCS, my question was then, if virtual pilot is the same in both cases (109 and 18 (I am not touching FC3 planes here)), what is the force when virtual pilot cannot do that and starts lagging behind our physical joystick?

 

 

I don´t quite get you - you can´t compare a modern aircraft like F-18 with the 109 in regards of force needed to deflect the stick.

There is so much technology and hydraulics to help in modern aircraft which weren´t present in planes like the 109.

 

 

Or do you think about something else?

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I don´t quite get you - you can´t compare a modern aircraft like F-18 with the 109 in regards of force needed to deflect the stick.

There is so much technology and hydraulics to help in modern aircraft which weren´t present in planes like the 109.

We are talking about only the flight stick force.. not the actual forces on elevator, etc. Pilot interface only. And since real F18 spring is set to the force I've mentioned in its max deflection it is a valid metric in DCS virtual pilot strength.

 

 

I allways liked the damping method over the current cutting method of the stick forces.

But I was in the minority.

I would prefer that option as well, Voodooman.

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