Finding combat next to impossible!

Thanks for that. I'll follow up on it.

Not used TACVIEW but might try and give it a go. Just before the kill in your video you are out climbing the Tomcat. I can never manage that in that mission!

That mission starts with low energy, speed around 200, and there is no way to increase it without being blown up by a missile. Any attempts to dive a bit or turn away, or any kind of manoeuvre to try to gain some speed results in the same outcome EVERY time for me, i.e. beep-beep-boom - I'm dead!

Most of the time, I am getting almost no response from the roll axis. I can be full stick left or right, and the F-5 doesn't move. I know I should be using less stick, but doing that ends up in the beep-beep-boom scenario within a few seconds!

Thanks for that. I'll follow up on it.

Not used TACVIEW but might try and give it a go. Just before the kill in your video you are out climbing the Tomcat. I can never manage that in that mission!

That mission starts with low energy, speed around 200, and there is no way to increase it without being blown up by a missile. Any attempts to dive a bit or turn away, or any kind of manoeuvre to try to gain some speed results in the same outcome EVERY time for me, i.e. beep-beep-boom - I'm dead!

Most of the time, I am getting almost no response from the roll axis. I can be full stick left or right, and the F-5 doesn't move. I know I should be using less stick, but doing that ends up in the beep-beep-boom scenario within a few seconds!

When you can't get any roll you are basically stalled (can still get some pitch responsiveness but the wing is effectively stalled), unload the back stick and try using your feet (rudder) - also, don't forget to use the aileron limiter function, it almost doubles your stick throw which can help in those stall/near stall conditions - it should be bound to a stick button.

 

'Gimp

IMHO, in that video you were outplayed by F-14 from the start, and you only got kill because the AI let you in the end as it didn't anymore try to maneuver.

 

You were doing leading turns, against fastest turning western fighter, that can even have tighter turn radius than other teen fighters. And you were not ready to get the kill in the first moment, what gave upper hand for AI.

 

Get behind, stay behind and don't play their game. You can always extend, you can always slow yourself down and still maintain high speed relative to them so you have energy to get back to behind.

Get behind, stay behind and don't play their game. You can always extend, you can always slow yourself down and still maintain high speed relative to them so you have energy to get back to behind.

With all due respect, I think we all know that. It’s how to achieve it that we need to know!

Have to tried that mission? Please tell how to get some energy going with being blown away by a missile!

IMHO, in that video you were outplayed by F-14 from the start, and you only got kill because the AI let you in the end as it didn't anymore try to maneuver.

 

You were doing leading turns, against fastest turning western fighter, that can even have tighter turn radius than other teen fighters. And you were not ready to get the kill in the first moment, what gave upper hand for AI.

 

Get behind, stay behind and don't play their game. You can always extend, you can always slow yourself down and still maintain high speed relative to them so you have energy to get back to behind.

Respectfully disagree.

 

We both made mistakes and we both missed opportunities but had the F-14 outplayed me the result would have been my death, in 2-5 turns, as it admittedly usually is, a lot, in that particular engagement.

 

In fairness, I have figured out that my instinct results in more two-circle engagements which is even worse against a better turning/more powerful opponent - thanks TacView! It's all about learning how to employ the weapon system you have available.

 

We all know the Tomcat was an extremely capable fighter, we all know it has better sustained turn, high-alpha, and specific excess power than the Tiger. And we all know that that engagement puts the Tiger at an EXTREME disadvantage from the very beginning.

 

Please post up your evidence of you just getting behind and staying behind the fastest turning western fighter, from that instant action engagement - just to show us all how it is done, I am always looking for examples I can learn from.

 

'Gimp

When you can't get any roll you are basically stalled (can still get some pitch responsiveness but the wing is effectively stalled), unload the back stick and try using your feet (rudder) - also, don't forget to use the aileron limiter function, it almost doubles your stick throw which can help in those stall/near stall conditions - it should be bound to a stick button.

 

'Gimp

How does that kind of stall occur? It has nothing to do with speed as it happens at any speed.

How best to use the rudder? I would have thought that in a banked turn, any rudder movement would just send you heading toward ground or the sky!

With the limiter off, how can I tell if it's working? I can't see any immediate difference.

How does that kind of stall occur? It has nothing to do with speed as it happens at any speed.

How best to use the rudder? I would have thought that in a banked turn, any rudder movement would just send you heading toward ground or the sky!

With the limiter off, how can I tell if it's working? I can't see any immediate difference.

Stall is AOA, not airspeed, you are pulling too much - I noticed same myself (e.g., stalled with mushy, non-responsive ailerons at 250 KIAS) and am changing the stick curve to help prevent it. Remember, stall is where the AOA exceeds the critical angle of attack for the wing and can occur at essentially any airspeed, until you get to the point you break the wing based on instantaneous G (which I am not sure is possible in the Tiger).

 

You can carve a turn with the rudder, and you can effectively point the nose when at low speed, but best to do with pedals and best to do smoothly, the Tiger rudder is surprisingly powerful. Try small movements to aid bringing the nose around, once you get a sense for how much pedal translates into motion at different speeds you'll dig it.

 

You can tell aileron limiter is off based on deflection of the aileron, it moves a lot more but you have to hold the bound switch/button since it is a momentary function (unless you have a force-feedback stick I think in which case it is modeled into the FFB loop).

 

'Gimp

I really appreciate all your advice guys, but I'm getting nowhere. (All my fault, I know!)

I just can't make any progress on dogfighting in the F-5 at all. I really don't know why I am struggling so much with this particular aircraft.

I really enjoyed learning how to fly the F-5, the training missions, reading the guides and watching various videos on YT, BUT, I just can't see what I am doing wrong when it comes to gun combat in dogfights.

Everyone talks about how important keeping up energy is, and that I must be pulling too hard on the stick so I'm losing it all. Well, I've tried to do that, and all that happens is that the enemy pulls tighter turns gets behind me and boom, I'm gone.

I've tried anticipating enemy movement rather than trying to follow and play catch up.

I've tried slow vertical rolls, fast vertical rolls, slower turns, faster turns, approaching high, approaching low etc. and every time the enemy is faster and tighter than me. Never seems to lose energy.

I can't get over (in my hands!) how sluggish I find the F-5. I can hardly make it move.

Take the 3 missions I am persevering with:

1) Instant Action Caucasus against another F-5. It is possible to turn and get behind this guy at the start. However, when he is in range of my guns, he just pulls this amazingly tight left turn - which I can't match in the same aircraft! - and that is it. We then have an endless exchange of manoeuvres until I get bored unless he manages a missile strike.

2) Instant Action Nevada against a F-14. I start at 200 knots and just don't have any time to gain any more energy. If I try, then it's lights out for me as usual.He just climbs and turns at a rate that is impossible to match. Like in 1) I can avoid being shot down as long as keep manoeuvring, but I can never get a shot away.

3) Mission 1 in Aggressor's Campaign against other F-5s. Well, I have never got a shot away in this mission! I have tried every possible approach at the start, but, as with all the others, once the manoeuvring starts, I am out turned, out dived and out climbed by the enemy bandit. As with the others, I don't tend to get shot down - unless I level off for a few seconds - and the VUL period of 5 minutes always terminates the mission.

In all cases, if I relax for a few seconds to regain some energy, then it's boom time with a missile and I'm gone.

I am also confused by the whole targeting system in the F-5. Not how to make it work, but its usefulness in this context.

In the calm world of training missions, everything works neatly, acquire targets and press the button. The theory is given in DG mode that says get a lock, hold the pipper over target and the system will automatically take care of lead etc.

Well, in practice, I've never used the acquire target method, there just isn't time in a dogfight. I tend to use DG and DM mode which work well in terms of getting a lock, but even when 'in range' comes up, actually hitting the target is something else altogether. Any reasonable turning angle makes missiles a waste of time, and the gun has to be led, holding the pipper over target when locked just doesn't work.

I guess what I'm saying here is that using the gun appears to be almost a visual thing, and the targeting system seems almost like an irrelevance.

So, as I said, I can't really see what I am doing that is so badly wrong, but I'm on the verge of giving up on the F-5 in combat. Pity, because I love flying around in it.

Maybe I'll give it one more go!

I don't know which guides or books you have been reading, but aileron rolls in any plane, vertical or horizontal are totally useless maneuvers and are only being used only in the movies.

You're taking what I said out of context. Basically, what I was trying to say was that I had tried everything!

The limiter is automatically switched off when the gear extended. It's only meant to be used during the approach at very low airspeed, way below anything useful in combat.

 

If you are experiencing roll limitations during combat and/or you have to use the rudder to turn it's a strong sign that you seriously screwed up already, that you are way too slow and/or the AoA is way too high to achieve effective maneuvering.

 

The F-5 isn't an aircraft that has been built for high AoA maneuvering and trying to force a higher roll authority by doubling the aileron deflection (+35/-25deg) at a high AoA is only increasing your chances to depart controlled flight.

 

Btw, since the F-16 has been built to fly and fight at high AoA the limiter is working the other way round. With the landing gear extended the roll rate limiter is on to reduce the available roll rate.

This is factually incorrect, RTFM (page 277 if interested).

 

The aileron limiter function (a resistance spring in the the real plane) is simulated in the F-5E and in order to get full throw you must deactivate the limiter (press and hold L or map to a joystick/HOTAS button unless you have a FFB stick) - it is a momentary function so press and hold. In the real plane, the limiter is OFF with gear down, and ON with gear UP, at full deflection and at speed the plane will do 700 degrees per second.

 

I don't have a lot of time in DCS yet but I have actually flown real BFM, in my real Yak, with a real USN F-5N adversary pilot and he used every axis to get snap shots off. We discussed his time at VFC-13 and he explained the F-5N had to use every trick in the book when fighting superior opponents (F/A-18, F-14).

 

To suggest rudder, rolls, or slow speed maneuvering have no place in combat is simply untrue and unhelpful. The lag roll, barrel roll, low and high speed yo-yo are staple BFM maneuvers -

additionally, high roll rates can be used to jink/fake an opponent out if driving into the WEZ.

 

Even when flown cleanly the F-5E is at a disadvantage against most other modern fighters and will end up slow in a prolonged fight, you simply must be able to fly it in all regimes.

 

'Gimp

Edited February 14, 2018 by AcroGimp

Guys, why don’t you take your argument somewhere else? Sorry, but we’ve moved away from the point.

Hi there, I've been working on fighting in the F5... it's definitely a challenge! I'm no pro, but I’m starting to feel like I can hold my own against the AI (well, at least some of the time anyway!)

 

About the radar and DM/DG - I find it much easier to lock in DM mode. The antenna elevation is 5 or so degrees higher than in DG mode, and closer to your center line/nose, and it just seems to acquire the lock better, while also giving a better visual cue with the piper to let you know that it's locked. So even if I have no missiles, or am planning to use guns, I'll still mainly use DM to get the initial lock. I'll even switch between DG and DM frequently during the fight.

 

Aiming in DG mode is hard and somewhat unintuitive because of the ‘floating’ piper. It is going to float around somewhat lazily in response to both your control inputs, and to the targets control inputs, and there also is some lag with how it responds. As a result, it is really unnatural and slow to try to "walk" the piper to the target. I find I over correct and never get in a good solution. Instead, I largely ignore the floating piper when maneuvering (or even quickly switch to DM mode so that the piper is fixed), and just focus on using my instincts/experience to get into the proper position, attitude, and lead for a gun solution, and the piper will naturally be over the target, then only for the absolute final corrections to the aiming will I focus on using the piper.

 

I haven't noticed the problem that you mention of still having to lead the target, but aiming is still tricky with the piper, and it's really easy to miss. I also really try to not fly with any slip while shooting, and I absolutely avoid using the rudder pedals to move the piper to aim (unless I'm really close and it's a last-ditch attempt to make a shot).

 

I also find DG mode hard when doing quick snap-shots, as it doesn't get the lock fast enough to help.

 

As for energy management, when turning I try to use gravity to help speed turn whenever possible. If doing a level turn, I try to make sure that the vertical velocity indicator shows a slight elevation loss, so that even though I'm losing energy from the turn, I'm not also losing energy by climbing at the same time. If I need to do a really high G turn, I'll try to time it so that I'm pulling the nose down through the horizon and gaining energy by losing elevation and having gravity help pull the nose around, rather than doing the same turn with the nose going up through the horizon where again you're losing energy both through the high G turn, and from gaining elevation, and now also gravity is working against your turn slowing your turn rate.

 

Similarly when fighting in the vertical, I will try to avoid doing a high G pull at the bottom of a loop, because you have gained a lot of energy from coming down, and it's really easy to bleed off all that energy by pulling up hard in the bottom of the loop. At the top of the loop though I will really yank hard on the stick to bring the nose around, because you are going to gain that energy back on the way down, and gravity is also helping you pull the nose around so your turning radius is much lower.

 

Now of course, you can't always time your turns or attack/defense so that you are always using gravity rather than fighting it, but it's just another thing to keep in mind. Another thing I try to keep in mind is unloading the wings whenever possible. If I’m pulling up and need to roll sharply, I will push forward on the stick to unload the wings, then roll, rather than trying to blend the pulling up maneuver into a roll. Again, it’s not something you can always do, but just another thing I keep in mind.

 

Also, try experimenting with putting the flaps in fixed-up rather than auto until you find yourself really slow, once the flaps get auto deployed, you lose energy really quickly.

 

I find I'm almost always in lag pursuit, trying to do high yo-yo's and conserving energy until I'm in the right position for a gun shot, and then I'll finally pull the nose a bit harder and bleed energy to pull the nose faster to make the shot. If it doesn't look like I'll be getting a shot, I go back to lag pursuit and maintain energy rather than pulling harder and harder bleeding all my energy in a futile attempt at the shot.

 

I keep my eye on the G meter, the vertical velocity indicator, and the slip indicator while dog-fighting. It's hard because it requires some attention, but I've found that paying attention to those really helps me keep up the energy. I also turn up the cockpit volume a bit to really listen for the wind buffeting sound effect when you start to turn too hard, and then try to fly and avoiding the sound.

 

I'll be honest that I also cheat and sometimes use the F5 button for external padlock nearest plane view when I lose sight or situation awareness. I find that helps me stay in the fight a bit longer and get back to the right position to stay in the fight... after all, this is just practice.

 

I've also started recording each practice fight in tacview, pause the game, and alt-tab to tacview right after the fight to review it and see how it played out.

 

When practicing against AI I will have a specific game plan of what I'm going to try or work on. For example, I will say: This fight I will go vertical at the merge and try to keep the fight vertical. Or, this fight I will turn into them on the merge and go for a scissors, or this fight I will turn away from them and try a horizontal turning circle fight, or this fight I will dive below them on the merge and come up from underneath, this fight I will try lead pursuit, or this fight I will try pure pursuit, etc. Then I review things in tacview and evaluate how I did with a bit more of an idea of how I wanted things to unfold. I watch how much energy both of us had during the fight by watching the TAS (true airspeed), and kind of try to be more analytical with evaluating what I did and how the fight went.

 

 

 

Anyway, that turned out to be way more text than I anticipated... tl;dr... I hope you find something useful in my little brain dump.

 

Do you ever try fighting against non-AI? If you want to try to meetup online to dogfight sometime send me an email at robscallsign@gmail.com ... I'm in Ontario, Canada, and you seem to be in the UK so lag might be an issue, but if you wanted to try to meet up on a public server for some BFM with a non-AI I’d be down. (Also I'll mention that the 104th is looking for more F-5 pilots for the Red vs. Blue rumble on February 25th, see the link on the "Tournaments" sub-forum).

 

Cheers, and good luck!

Edited February 14, 2018 by Stingray
grammar

Wow, Stingray, thanks a lot! I will read what you said carefully, and see if I can apply it over the next few days.

One quick question, what is the best method to shake off a AI bandit on your tail when your F-5 has a reasonable amount of energy? Is there a 'best method'?

I've never tried multi-player in a jet, but I guess there should be a first time!

Wow, Stingray, thanks a lot! I will read what you said carefully, and see if I can apply it over the next few days.

One quick question, what is the best method to shake off a AI bandit on your tail when your F-5 has a reasonable amount of energy? Is there a 'best method'?

I've never tried multi-player in a jet, but I guess there should be a first time!

I'll take a stab at this but look forward to other replies.

 

I have found having your lift vector displaced from the opponent, e.g., off to left or right using roll, and then a very hard bat-turn pull, to be effective for forcing an overshoot (if you can pull below the bandits' wings level line, e.g., below their line of sight/flight path, is best since they now have a large roll and pitch angle to address).

 

The instantaneous pitch rate of the F-5 is pretty good with energy on (~400 KIAS for corner velocity mid-teens). You are giving up energy to do so, so if altitude allows turn that momentary separation into an opportunity to unload and accelerate keeping an eye on the bandit to rebuild the smash.

 

'Gimp

Thanks a lot AcroGimp. I’m struggling a bit with some of your terminology and hence concept, but I’ll try and translate into simple terms I can understand!

Thanks a lot AcroGimp. I’m struggling a bit with some of your terminology and hence concept, but I’ll try and translate into simple terms I can understand!

Try this.

 

Lift vector is essentially a line straight up from your wings, perpendicular to the wings and to your line of travel/flight path.

 

If someone is driving into the weapons effective zone (WEZ) behind you, they will typically be trying to match your bank angle, since the most efficient lead lag or pure pursuit is to align their lift vector with yours. This will vary if they are also driving in with a heading crossing angle (offset from your flight path) but in general you want to keep your lift vector on the guy you want to shoot, so the guy who wants to shoot you wants to do it too (with mods for lead, lag or pure pursuit).

 

If you see someone working to get a gun or missile shot, take advantage of the F-5's superior roll performance to roll well right or left quickly, and then pull hard - if they are already not matched to your bank angle, say they are off to the left, roll away (to the right) to create more roll and/or heading change they have to go through to get their lift vector back on you. This gives the separation you want to force an overshoot where they simply cannot make the same corner.

 

Do be sure you are not improving their firing solution if they are offset in lead/lag vs pure pursuit, in this case you turn into them usually to create a bigger HCA issue - it is like formation flying, basically 'visual geometry'.

 

'Gimp

Without getting into specific tactics, I would agree with Stingray that multiplayer is a great way to experience the F5. Lots of threads talk about some of the advantages the AI seem to have in DCS so I won't go there, but suffice to say I some of my most fun experiences in DCS have been in the F5 against human flown Mig21s. It is unpredictable, exciting, and rewarding in a way the AI can't compete with, IMO.

Without getting into specific tactics, I would agree with Stingray that multiplayer is a great way to experience the F5. Lots of threads talk about some of the advantages the AI seem to have in DCS so I won't go there, but suffice to say I some of my most fun experiences in DCS have been in the F5 against human flown Mig21s. It is unpredictable, exciting, and rewarding in a way the AI can't compete with, IMO.

Thanks Tom, I'm too scared to venture into the MP world given my complete inability to grasp the basics of F-5 dogfighting, despite all the great advice here!

Thanks Tom, I'm too scared to venture into the MP world given my complete inability to grasp the basics of F-5 dogfighting, despite all the great advice here!

 

give it a try, who'd say anything ?

What could you possibly loose?

After my initial jump into flying against the AI which are obviously flying alien tech ufos disguised as planes which are immune to pesky things like gravity,inertia,Gs and exceeding mechancal limits, I would not hesitate to go against a real human. No clue what the AI is now as I just recently within the last 3 months jumped back in but I can not imagine it possibly being any worse.

 

I recall setting up a 1 v 1 "EASY" AI. Me Mustang, he 109. My crew obviously loaded marshmallows as bullets and his were depleted uranium heat seekers with every hit striking the most critical of systems. The easy AI even slaughtered FIVE AI ACES. I made myself impossible to kill with unlimited ammo, got on his 6 and held the trigger until my hand started cramping. Smoking like a smoke stack the ai simply limped off leaving my untouched plane behind seeing that my untouched plane's engine was overheating but his was in tip top shape.

 

The f5 is not the plane I would choose to learn how to dogfight with it's high loading and high loss of speed scrub in turns. Jump into a F-15 or even Harrier. Good luck.

Yes I know how you feel. I fired up the F5 on Deadlyfishes' "Through the Inferno" to practice A2A "Easy" on OA 2.2.0 NTTR. A Mig31 spawned, so I immedately jettisoned tanks and headed for the deck and hills in the opposite direction. A minute later I got a launch warning. I flew as low as I could through the hills dropping chaff. Next minute "Boom". I watched the replay. The Mig31 climbed on burner to about 35K, then launched the equivalent of a Phoenix missile from about 30 miles away. I tracked the missile view, even after my evasion in the weeds, the missile (AA9 I think) homed in true on me.

 

More practice I guess, lol....

 

Cheers!

 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

I'm fairly new to dogfighting and DCS. My first jet was the F-5. I have the red flag campaign but I find multiplayer to be a lot of fun. Once you find a server that isn't full of spamraam's knocking you down, it's loads of fun. Even if you screw up, you just get better at the start-up procedure.

Thanks for all your advice here guys. Despite that, I’m going to give the F-5 a rest for a while. I just can’t make it move in a dogfight at all. So slow, and all energy just gets lost, which makes it impossible to make a fight of it with any AI bandits.

I’m trying out the Viggen, and that seems like a really interesting aircraft, and it can do banked turns without losing too much energy! So, I’ll give it a go for a while.

I’ll try coming back to the F-5 sometime in the near future!

Thanks for all your advice here guys. Despite that, I’m going to give the F-5 a rest for a while. I just can’t make it move in a dogfight at all. So slow, and all energy just gets lost, which makes it impossible to make a fight of it with any AI bandits.

I’m trying out the Viggen, and that seems like a really interesting aircraft, and it can do banked turns without losing too much energy! So, I’ll give it a go for a while.

I’ll try coming back to the F-5 sometime in the near future!

I own the viggen and love it very much.

But believe me when i say: f5 is for dogfighting, viggen for striking.

The viggen is far less capable of surviving aircombat than a f5 is.

Nevertheless i love my old swede and would not want to exchange it to something else

 

Gesendet von meinem ONE E1003 mit Tapatalk

I own the viggen and love it very much.

But believe me when i say: f5 is for dogfighting, viggen for striking.

The viggen is far less capable of surviving aircombat than a f5 is.

Nevertheless i love my old swede and would not want to exchange it to something else

 

Gesendet von meinem ONE E1003 mit Tapatalk

I’m sure you’re right, and maybe dogfighting is just not for me. Well, having said that, I love dogfighting in the Spit and Mustang. The Viggen has got interesting weapons, and looks like fun.

I know it’s me, but I have spent many frustrating hours on the F-5 and have got nowhere with it.

I enjoyed learning from the manuals, the training, in fact everything except dogfighting with guns. Due to my own lack of skill, it always ended up the same, i.e. endless manoeuvring avoiding being shot at, but never being able to get a shot off. If I stuck it out, always ended with running out of fuel.

I tried, but just failed miserably!