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Help with Handling the Spitfire Mk IX (25 Feb was one of the worst days of my...)


imacken

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Yes I got it mate, good to hear you have got the hang of it :thumbup: .

 

I sent you an response regarding the pedals, definiently ask on these forums before buying.

 

I can highly recommend the MFG Crosswind pedals...

 

http://mfg.simundza.com/products

 

Krupi, my progress was short lived! I may need to take you up on your online offer after all!

I feel like I'm going backwards now.

Here is a typical track. Not my best (or worst!), but I though I would just show the kind of thing that happens. Any advice very welcome!

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Krupi, my progress was short lived! I may need to take you up on your online offer after all!

I feel like I'm going backwards now.

Here is a typical track. Not my best (or worst!), but I though I would just show the kind of thing that happens. Any advice very welcome!

 

I viewed your track several times and the only thing that I can think of is that you may have stayed on the rudder just a little too long during the middle portion of your landing. Maybe if you come off of any particular rudder input a little before you see the full result it may help. I'm running into the same problem now and then, but the vast majority of my landings are OK.

 

Attached is a track of a circuit that I did (pardon the view adjustment at the start). Note the air speeds and trim settings in addition to the control inputs at the lower left. I aim to approach at 95 to 100 mph, but I was slightly slow just before the flare.

 

JimTM Spitfire IX - 2017-03-22 - Circuit Practice.trk

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I made a take-off landing vid with the view pulled back so you can see my rudder inputs. Not sure if this will help. Like JimTM says, don't stay on any one rudder input too long. As soon as I see indications that my rudder input is being followed, I reverse it to eliminate any possibility of going too far, then reverse it again, and again until you're slow enough to control direction under braking.

 

You shouldn't need any brakes upon first touching down and rolling for a bit. Only once you get slower. And depending on your speed on touchdown, you may need more or less deflection of the rudder to get a resulting response. It'll take practice and keen observation to get a sense of what you're going to need based on how fast you're going.

 

I rarely look at the MPH of my approach any more. I just make sure to fly down the runway around 5 to 10 feet off the ground until I'm tracking straight down the center with no side slip and wings level. Once I'm flying down the runway, I gently bring the throttle back until I can keep it flying at that 5 to 10 ft but just above stall. When I'm confident I have the stability and angle, I just edge the throttle a TINY bit back and keep the nose up until touch down.

 

The majority of my landings now take place after flying along the runway for at least 4 or 5 seconds. It bleeds speed and allows you to get centered and stable so you don't have to think about that part when you touch down. Just think about back and forth on the rudder.

 

Just swim down the runway with your rudder like the tail of a fish. Maybe that analogy will help? Here's the vid I did:

 


Edited by No.401_Wolverine
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Krupi, my progress was short lived! I may need to take you up on your online offer after all!

I feel like I'm going backwards now.

Here is a typical track. Not my best (or worst!), but I though I would just show the kind of thing that happens. Any advice very welcome!

 

Sure, I will be available around 7:30 tonight if you have the time?

Windows 10 Pro | ASUS RANGER VIII | i5 6600K @ 4.6GHz| MSI RTX 2060 SUPER | 32GB RAM | Corsair H100i | Corsair Carbide 540 | HP Reverb G2 | MFG crosswind Pedals | Custom Spitfire Cockpit

Project IX Cockpit

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I made a take-off landing vid with the view pulled back so you can see my rudder inputs. Not sure if this will help. Like JimTM says, don't stay on any one rudder input too long. As soon as I see indications that my rudder input is being followed, I reverse it to eliminate any possibility of going too far, then reverse it again, and again until you're slow enough to control direction under braking.

 

You shouldn't need any brakes upon first touching down and rolling for a bit. Only once you get slower. And depending on your speed on touchdown, you may need more or less deflection of the rudder to get a resulting response. It'll take practice and keen observation to get a sense of what you're going to need based on how fast you're going.

 

I rarely look at the MPH of my approach any more. I just make sure to fly down the runway around 5 to 10 feet off the ground until I'm tracking straight down the center with no side slip and wings level. Once I'm flying down the runway, I gently bring the throttle back until I can keep it flying at that 5 to 10 ft but just above stall. When I'm confident I have the stability and angle, I just edge the throttle a TINY bit back and keep the nose up until touch down.

 

The majority of my landings now take place after flying along the runway for at least 4 or 5 seconds. It bleeds speed and allows you to get centered and stable so you don't have to think about that part when you touch down. Just think about back and forth on the rudder.

 

Just swim down the runway with your rudder like the tail of a fish. Maybe that analogy will help? Here's the vid I did:

 

JimTM, thanks for that. I'll have a look at your track later.

Wolverine, thanks. I fully understand how the rudder works, the dancing back and fore like a fish as you say.

My problem is not that, I think my issue is that I can't get to the rudder stage regularly.

What happens is that if I try and hover slowly, I just get a wing tipping over to the right, and can't control it. If I hover at a higher speed, I have better control, but regularly, I touch down too heavily, and damage the undercarriage. I have tried hovering and letting the Spit drop naturally with and without throttle change so that trim doesn't change. I have tried gradually reducing the throttle as the plane is hovering and letting that lower it. I can succeed sometimes, but not often!

I have looked at your video before, and feel sick! You make it look so simple! I honestly am beginning to think there is something wrong with me or my equipment. I mean, I understand all the principles, replicate conditions in videos and follow advice, but still I have the issue.

Very, very frustrating.

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Hm. Well, my best recommendation then is just keep at it. I spent a few hours just taking off and landing. Taking off and landing. Over and over. It wasn't easy to sort out, but after a while, there are subtle visual cues to help.

 

Best thing I can think to do after what you've just described is practice just flying down the runway line. Don't even worry about landing. Just do the turn to final with gear down and flaps down and just fly down the runway. No sudden throttle movements. Get slower and lower as best you can until you feel you're as slow and low as you can go while still keeping control. Once you reach the end of the runway, slowly put power back on, raise gear and flaps, and go around again. Over and over.

 

Then once you get that part, move on to the actually setting down bit. From the sounds of it, you're just not getting low enough while in control of the aircraft. When you're parked on the runway before take-off, make a mental picture of the horizon and its position on the canopy and the angles etc. Remembering that will help when you're trying to fly low and in control but still be only a few feet off the ground.


Edited by No.401_Wolverine
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Hm. Well, my best recommendation then is just keep at it. I spent a few hours just taking off and landing. Taking off and landing. Over and over. It wasn't easy to sort out, but after a while, there are subtle visual cues to help.

 

 

Agreed, that is what I did. Took me about 20+ hours of this before I finally got to where I could make some nice landings with rollout to stop.

Don B

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Once you slow down enough the rudder has little to know effect on direction and you now need to return to taxi maneuvering by using the brakes and rudder.

 

Wheel brakes (From the DCS manual)

"The brake trigger located on the control stick (and connected to the valve by Bowden cable) opens the brake relay valve. Depending on the pressure applied to the trigger, the valve regulates the airflow to the brakes. The brake differential allows for regulation of the pressure in the brakes depending on pedal deflection."

 

So a full pull on the brake leaver and with full right rudder pedal will put all the brakes on the right wheel. Some here, I have read about put the brake lever on an axis slider etc, this way they have the brakes very slightly already applied 20%? before they land so when they land and the speed slows they have full control still.

 

I don't do this myself and haven't had the need, still it makes sense. Perhaps give it go?

 

This is me just playin around on the ground, watch how squirrely she gets when slowing down.

 

Jhb-RdBkac8

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Once you slow down enough the rudder has little to know effect on direction and you now need to return to taxi maneuvering by using the brakes and rudder.

 

Wheel brakes (From the DCS manual)

"The brake trigger located on the control stick (and connected to the valve by Bowden cable) opens the brake relay valve. Depending on the pressure applied to the trigger, the valve regulates the airflow to the brakes. The brake differential allows for regulation of the pressure in the brakes depending on pedal deflection."

 

So a full pull on the brake leaver and with full right rudder pedal will put all the brakes on the right wheel. Some here, I have read about put the brake lever on an axis slider etc, this way they have the brakes very slightly already applied 20%? before they land so when they land and the speed slows they have full control still.

 

I don't do this myself and haven't had the need, still it makes sense. Perhaps give it go?

 

This is me just playin around on the ground, watch how squirrely she gets when slowing down.

 

Jhb-RdBkac8

Hi, thanks for that. Unfortunately, that is not my issue. I'm fine with the whole taxiing thing with rudder and brakes at slow speeds, including during landing.

My problem is the period between actual touchdown and getting to the braking phase. No matter what I have tried, I (almost) always get some kind of wing tipping drama before righting the plane, and doing the taxiing/brake thing, ready for another take off.

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Sounds to me you may have to much side loading then when putting her down, wind or no wind you need to have her nice and straight and no or very little side movement, also be sure to keep your view straight ahead and use your peripheral vision, otherwise you will pull and be bias to that side.

 

This video is one of best one around I believe that can teach this taildragger stuff.

 

Another lecture about taildragger

PDF "What's Different About Taildraggers?" - Download the PDF HERE

 

This is very important below! and could be your main problem?

Whether Cub or Pitts, the concept remains the same – do not try to bring the nose back to the centerline with the first application of rudder. To do so means you just played the opening chord on doing the two step tango again, because your right foot is going to wind up chasing your left foot and vice versa. We hate to harp on this, but remember – first stop the nose in the direction it’s headed, bring it parallel with the centerline, and then bring it back to the centerline if so desired. Each of these movements is done with quick little jabs of the rudder unless the nose is really going off in one direction or the other and then it’s done with quick big jabs of the rudder.

 

This is even worse with plenty of side loading as you touch down, say your landing and drifting (side loading) to the left as you touch down, you automatically hit the right peddle right? To line back up to the runway centerline, No. If you don't stabilize first by going with it, the wing will drop. (All the weight is going to the left) So you will need to hit left rudder first to stabilize the weight back to both the wheels then bring the nose back to the right. You can get away with it on tricycle gear aircraft because the center of gravity is in front of the main gear.

 

image002.gif

 

Go easy on your self imacken, remember you don't learn to fly a taildragger with 2000HP like we do, IRL it's more like the cub in the video with around 50hp lol. practise, practise, practise


Edited by David OC

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David OC, thanks again. I appreciate the comments and the effort to reply.

The problem here is that I can't go easy on myself! I have literally done hundreds of attempted landings with this plane.

I am comfortable with the whole concept of how the rudder/brake thing works. I am confident with the whole dancing feet thing. I am happy with the straight ahead and using peripheral vision, ensuring level attitude, etc.

My problem is literally at the touchdown stage. I can get there OK, I can stop and re take off ok, etc. It's the touchdown that I just can't get right.

1) If I come in low and level to touchdown, and slow to around 60mph, I get (almost always) a tipping over to one side immediately on touchdown, which I can correct with a lot of rudder/brake, but....

2) If I come in a steeper angle and level off, I tend to get pretty major incidents as even with my best efforts, I guess the drop rate is too great.

3) If I try to fly level over the runway a little faster, then inevitably I end up bouncing, and that is it.

I'm not complaining about anything, just utterly disgusted at my inability to do this after weeks of trying.

I can land the Mustang OK, so I don't really get what is going wrong.

Krupi has offered to help me by linking up online, so I might take him up on that after I return from a few days away. I need to get away from this infernal plane!!!

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So the problem seems to be the flare itself. Compared to Mustang, which can be poorly flared and dropped on the runway like a pancake without any major consequences, the Spit does require much smoother and straighter touchdowns. I've noticed that any bounce makes wing scraping pretty much guaranteed.

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So the problem seems to be the flare itself. Compared to Mustang, which can be poorly flared and dropped on the runway like a pancake without any major consequences, the Spit does require much smoother and straighter touchdowns. I've noticed that any bounce makes wing scraping pretty much guaranteed.

 

I have to disagree there I have practised some fairly hard "pancakes" and can get away without scraping a wing. Obviously nothing like the P-51 can take but still some pretty hard landings :)

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Project IX Cockpit

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David OC, thanks again. I appreciate the comments and the effort to reply.

The problem here is that I can't go easy on myself! I have literally done hundreds of attempted landings with this plane.

I am comfortable with the whole concept of how the rudder/brake thing works. I am confident with the whole dancing feet thing. I am happy with the straight ahead and using peripheral vision, ensuring level attitude, etc.

My problem is literally at the touchdown stage. I can get there OK, I can stop and re take off ok, etc. It's the touchdown that I just can't get right.

1) If I come in low and level to touchdown, and slow to around 60mph, I get (almost always) a tipping over to one side immediately on touchdown, which I can correct with a lot of rudder/brake, but....

2) If I come in a steeper angle and level off, I tend to get pretty major incidents as even with my best efforts, I guess the drop rate is too great.

3) If I try to fly level over the runway a little faster, then inevitably I end up bouncing, and that is it.

I'm not complaining about anything, just utterly disgusted at my inability to do this after weeks of trying.

I can land the Mustang OK, so I don't really get what is going wrong.

Krupi has offered to help me by linking up online, so I might take him up on that after I return from a few days away. I need to get away from this infernal plane!!!

 

I understand your frustration there imacken, lol.

 

What rudder pedals do you have? I’m using Saitek combat pedals; I would like some MFG Crosswinds would be nice at some point. Just making sure you’re not trying to do all the necessary actions on a twist stick, flying like this would make it twice as hard to land the spitfire or any ww2 plane and would take much more practise.

 

Number 1) This is correct and is what I use, I stay around 90 mph flying over the runway threshold.

 

Let’s go back a bit now before the runway threshold and talk about the initial setup, you have to have the aircraft completely trimmed out well or very close to level flight at around this 90 mph speed (plenty of up trim), you should be able to lightly hold the controls in your fingertips. Then only making slight adjustments and slowly sinking down to the runway when you think you’re about one meter or 3 foot off the runway slowly bring a little of the power back and try to hold the aircraft level, let her mini stall and drop herself onto the runway.

 

Take note in the video of the very very small sink rate (Mini stall) onto the runway, I do it similar to this for the 109 too. Just a quick video below, not my best landing here and my excuse is that it’s been a few weeks since I took the spitfire up.

 

pjVRTrwrEWI


Edited by David OC

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I understand your frustration there imacken, lol.

 

What rudder pedals do you have? I’m using Saitek combat pedals; I would like some MFG Crosswinds would be nice at some point. Just making sure you’re not trying to do all the necessary actions on a twist stick, flying like this would make it twice as hard to land the spitfire or any ww2 plane and would take much more practise.

 

Number 1) This is correct and is what I use, I stay around 90 mph flying over the runway threshold.

 

Let’s go back a bit now before the runway threshold and talk about the initial setup, you have to have the aircraft completely trimmed out well or very close to level flight at around this 90 mph speed (plenty of up trim), you should be able to lightly hold the controls in your fingertips. Then only making slight adjustments and slowly sinking down to the runway when you think you’re about one meter or 3 foot off the runway slowly bring a little of the power back and try to hold the aircraft level, let her mini stall and drop herself onto the runway.

I am using the pedals from my G27 Logitech wheel. Unfortunately, I can't blame them.

I've come to the conclusion that I am doing something fundamentally wrong, and just repeating it over and over despite my attempts to mimic what all you guys do in the videos and give me advice.

It honestly has become an unhealthy situation, I have become quite obsessed by this whole landing thing. As I said above, I am going away for a few days and will be happy to not see this plane again till the end of next week.

I think until someone looks at what I am doing wrong - Krupi next week? - I am giving up.

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I am using the pedals from my G27 Logitech wheel. Unfortunately, I can't blame them.

I've come to the conclusion that I am doing something fundamentally wrong, and just repeating it over and over despite my attempts to mimic what all you guys do in the videos and give me advice.

It honestly has become an unhealthy situation, I have become quite obsessed by this whole landing thing. As I said above, I am going away for a few days and will be happy to not see this plane again till the end of next week.

I think until someone looks at what I am doing wrong - Krupi next week? - I am giving up.

Honestly, your hardware can make things go completely wrong even if it seems fine. Different hardware (using different axis for brakes, changing curves.. ) setups gave me completely opposite results in the spit. A very little detail can change anything. So I would not blame the pilot so much after this number of attempts. This may well be a controller problem.

Did you experiment with curves? Try changing them for rudder, roll & pitch. Also try different placement of the brake axis.

I guess the way it was setup in real spit made everything smooth and natural. It's not the case for us in DCS. After several hours of training (phase which you already got through), then controller setup experiments, it suddenly completely kicked in for me.

And like you I couldn't possibly blame my hardware, it's a MFG Crosswind and x55, you can't say it's because of bad controller with THAT hardware . When I point at controller, it's not to say that your hardware is bad or badly suited, but that the axis setup doesn't fit what the spit needs, and what you need so that it feels natural.


Edited by Whisper

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I can land the Mustang OK, so I don't really get what is going wrong.

 

Hmmm. I think this could be at the root of your problem. I've found that the Spit behaves very differently from the Mustang right before touchdown.

 

I find that the Spit is actually much easier to bring down for a nice three pointer than the Stang. Once it's on the ground and slowing down then the problems start, but you don't seem to be having problems on the rollout.

 

You mentioned a bouncing problem, are you sure you're not trying to land wheelers in the Spit?

(Two-point landings). I strongly reccomend you stick to three pointers in the Spit.

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  • 2 weeks later...

OK guys, after a week away, and some online help from Krupi, I was still having issues with scraping wings, etc. So, I bought some Thrustmaster TFlight pedals to see if that would help.

That is a new skill to learn, as I was using the pedals on my Logitech G27 wheel and they are lever based as opposed to being in and out on a rail.

Days of re-learning ahead!

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Good to hear Imacken, hope they help.

 

If you fancy jumping online again especially now you can get on burning skies let me know.

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Good to hear Imacken, hope they help.

 

If you fancy jumping online again especially now you can get on burning skies let me know.

Thanks Krupi, that would be fun.

Unfortunately, I am having to relearn all techniques with these pedals. I am just not getting on with them at all. Struggling to take off now, far less land!

I can't believe that the technique is so different with the 2 types of pedal. Everything is counter intuitive to me at the moment. Any recommendations on curves for flight pedals? One of the issues I have is recognising when the pedals are in 'neutral' position.

Still, I'm going to give it a couple of days before I go back to my old pedals!

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Thanks Krupi, that would be fun.

Unfortunately, I am having to relearn all techniques with these pedals. I am just not getting on with them at all. Struggling to take off now, far less land!

I can't believe that the technique is so different with the 2 types of pedal. Everything is counter intuitive to me at the moment. Any recommendations on curves for flight pedals? One of the issues I have is recognising when the pedals are in 'neutral' position.

Still, I'm going to give it a couple of days before I go back to my old pedals!

 

Stick with them, it'll click eventually :-) Curves wise I like about a 25-30% curvature, just makes them a little less twitchy around the centre.

 

In terms of your landing difficulties, I've not seen your landing attempts (couldn't get the track to work) but from what you've described it sounds like you're trying to place the plane onto the ground, rather than let it stall itself onto the ground. I'd need to see a video to be sure, but it's a common problem and you can mostly get away with it in the Mustang, but not in the Spit.

 

Ideally speaking (in a tail dragger) in the flare you want to hold the plane just above the runway as long as possible, whilst it loses speed. Eventually the plane won't have the energy to fly anymore and it'll sink onto the ground of its own accord. At this point it doesn't have the energy for any bouncing or anything like that. You keep the stick held all the way back and then let it roll out while dancing on the rudder. In practice I do this by holding a specific "landing attitude" in the flare, I memorise where the horizon should be relative to the canopy when the plane is parked on the ground and then hold that attitude in the flare. Keep a little bit of power on and the plane will settle itself onto the runway.

 

However, what a lot of people end up doing is flying the plane onto the runway. You come down, you flare a bit but you basically fly the plane at the ground. Tail draggers don't like this and the result tends to be a "bounce" (which actually isn't a "bounce" at all, but instead a momentary change of momentum causing the plane to pitch up). As I said above, you can get away with this in a Mustang but if you do it in a Spitfire you'll almost certainly drop a wing in the rollout.

 

Keep going with it. Yes it can be very frustrating, and I remember those days of lots and lots of practice, but eventually it will click into place and you'll find you can just do it. If you post a video (include the controls overlay - RCtrl+Enter) then I'm happy to give more in-depth feedback.


Edited by Tomsk
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However, what a lot of people end up doing is flying the plane onto the runway. You come down, you flare a bit but you basically fly the plane at the ground. Tail draggers don't like this and the result tends to be a "bounce" (which actually isn't a "bounce" at all, but instead a momentary change of momentum causing the plane to pitch up).

 

This is exactly what I was doing last night. Was using VR but could hear my wife laughing at my landings: They looked good until I hit the ground and just bounced right back up!

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OK guys, my latest news on my rapid path to a psychiatrist!

The good news - I've got used to the new pedals now.

The bad news is, they have made no difference and I am no further forward in getting landings to be successful.

I really do think I have got some kind of mental block with this Spit. Seriously.

I have followed all your excellent advice, I have watched every Youtube video I can find, at least once, and still I cannot complete successful landings on a regular basis.

I'm sure you've all seen this before, but Phil's video here

just makes me laugh. That is EXACTLY how things are for me. I could have made that video!

I will try and post a video tomorrow, but I really don't get it.

If I cross the threshold at around 90-100mph and let the plane just drift down, I inevitably get a bounce and I'm off again because I'm dropping too quickly! If try to lift the nose a little, I go into a stall situation and the wings dip at one side.

If I try to hover at a slightly higher speed with the nose up a little, I get too much lift when I try to do the final flare.

Sometimes I am having problems coming in straight, despite being perfectly trimmed.

When I watch the videos, they all have landings with the nose rock solid, looking like it could be pointed anywhere with small accurate stick movements. With me, the aircraft seems floaty, and sometimes bouncing around.

Should the plane be trimmed so that it will fly level if you take your hand off the stick?

I'm going crazy!

PS. Why was the title of this thread changed?

Intel i7 12700K · MSI Gaming X Trio RTX 4090 · ASUS ROG STRIX Z690-A Wi-Fi · MSI 32" MPG321UR QD · Samsung 970 500Gb M.2 NVMe · 2 x Samsung 850 Evo 1Tb · 2Tb HDD · 32Gb Corsair Vengance 3000MHz DDR4 · Windows 11 · Thrustmaster TPR Pedals · Tobii Eye Tracker 5 · Thrustmaster F/A-18 Hornet Grip · Virpil MongoosT-50CM3 Base · Virpil Throttle MT-50 CM3 · Virpil Alpha Prime Grip · Virpil Control Panel 2 · Thrustmaster F-16 MFDs · HTC Vive Pro 2 · Total Controls Multifunction Button Box

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