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Questions about landing


HoneyViper

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Hey all,

I'm brand new to DCS and bought the F-5 as my first module.

I've tried landing it about 15 times now in the landing training instruction, and managed not to crash only two of those times. I'm thinking I probably don't understand the fundamentals of pitch and thrust. Here's what seems to be happening:

- When I start the session the plane is in afterburner and pitching up fairly dramatically. I bring the throttle back down to about halfway and trim the nose and try and bring it to level flying.

- Once it's level I then start to descend by pushing the stick forward. I get it down to 1500 ft then try to bring my speed down to 300 kts, as instructed.

- From here things are fine, sometimes I'm a bit wobbly circling the landing strip. (incidentally, why do we circle the runway and not just land it straight away? is this a safety thing?)

- The problem starts when I come in for the final approach. By this point I'm at about 200-250 kts, trying to bring it down to 145ish. But when I do this the plane really starts to struggle, then it drops and I end up crashing into the ground before the runway. At this point I'm still not even doing the recommended 145, so why am I dropping like this?

Thanks!

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Are you using your flaps at all? The f5 is one of the tamer ones to try and land (unlike mig21)

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It sounds like two main problems: too much stick movement to try to chase altitude, and too much throttle movement to try to chase a specific speed.

 

When landing, you generally want to use small inputs and if at all possible only ever use the stick to roll. Also, try to invert what input controls what in your head: throttle is for altitude, pitch is for speed, rather than the other way around.

 

If you need to descend, it's better to throttle back and thus increase your descent speed than to nose down. But you also don't want to just push and pull on the throttle because the F-5 doesn't exactly have the most responsive engines — you pull back a little and hopefully settle for a nice descent speed; if you don't, you pull back a little more… but not too much because as you go around the pattern, you will naturally bleed speed and in the turns and this will then give you descent speed that needs to be compensated for. But in general, use throttle to control descent speed rather than the stick; if you're at the right altitude already, trim up a bit to lose more speed, and adjust the throttle to maintain altitude (of course, you then have to trim down again once you've lost enough speed). This is part of what the pattern is for: giving you a good length of flying distance that nevertheless gives clear checkpoints relative to the airfield where certain parameters should be met, and also giving you a series of manoeuvres that help you attain those parameters, that give you enough time to settle down in the new drag and speed configuration for each leg, and still end up nicely aligned with the runway on your final rather than having to squint and guesstimate from 10nm out.

 

As unhelpful as it is, you simply need to get a feel for how much throttle is needed for a given AoA+descent and for how much you'll slow down as you take the different turns.

 

This is probably what your final approach issue stems from: you're not anticipating what the effects of your throttle inputs are doing to your aircraft. As you're trying to reach 145kts, you've accidentally set up the aircraft to hobble along at 80kts (which it can't do) and you aren't throttling up to meet the speed loss half-way, as it were. So you blow right past that 145kts mark (which might actually be a bit too slow for your config) and constantly gaining more vertical speed, causing more drag, slowing you down more, faster — suddenly you're so far behind the curve that no amount of thrust alone will get you out of the situation. As you see the AoA indexer light go from “way too fast” to “only slightly too fast”, you need to throttle up pretty sharply — better yet, anticipate it and start to throttle up before it happens. Ease into the right speed rather than try to bring it down (or up) quickly, because the F-5 simply won't let you do that. If you need to, extend the legs slightly to give the throttle and speed more time to settle (and if the mission fails you for it, tell the trainer to go boil his head and then try again…).

 

You're also most likely too focused on that number rather than on what actually matters: the AoA indexer and simply figuring out which part of the ground you're headed towards (it should stay pretty much still relative to the nose). Any given indicated speed will only ever be accurate for a very specific aircraft weight, altitude, AoA, wind direction, etc etc etc — as long as you're not getting down into stall territory, the IAS gauge is among the least relevant for getting into a good glideslope. It's good for telling when you can put the wheels down without ripping them off, but that's about it. :D

 

 

e: Oh, and while it's not the prettiest thing in the world to do, you can always use the classic Warthog airbrake method: push your airbrakes out for just a second and leave them there. You now have to put in more throttle to maintain a given airspeed, but it gives you a quick out if you suddenly find that you need more speed — just retract the brakes fully. Since the engines are already operating at higher RPM, you don't get the usual lag where they have to match a new throttle setting. It's bad form and a bad habit, though, so use with due caution.


Edited by Tippis

❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧

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...

- From here things are fine, sometimes I'm a bit wobbly circling the landing strip. (incidentally, why do we circle the runway and not just land it straight away? is this a safety thing?)

- The problem starts when I come in for the final approach. By this point I'm at about 200-250 kts, trying to bring it down to 145ish. But when I do this the plane really starts to struggle, then it drops and I end up crashing into the ground before the runway. At this point I'm still not even doing the recommended 145, so why am I dropping like this?

Thanks!

The reason to “circle” the runway is to make sure it is free of obstruction while configuring for landing.

 

The reason you’re having such trouble in the landing phase is that you haven’t lowered your flaps as already suggested. As your speed decreases with your flaps still retracted, you have to increase your AoA ( angle of attack) too much in order to stay airborne. With your nose too high, drag increases to a point where you can’t keep the aircraft in the air.

 

Also the proper landing speed is not a fixed number. It’ll vary a bit depending on your landing weight.


Edited by Ironhand

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to clarify my earlier question, honeyviper, you mention dropping as you hit 145

flaps give you more lift at lower speed.

 

get used to what a good approach looks& feels like. I play in VR on a vive (not pro) and clarity on the gauges can be a "challenge" at times. once you get a feel for a good glide-slope feels like, youll have an easier time than chasing numbers

 

one final bit of advice: dont let the frustration get in the way, once you manage to stick your first landing (deliberately, not accidentally), the satisfaction from those moments is like a drug. as you develop more competencies with other aircraft, therell be more things that are satisfying but nothing stacks up quite like being new to it all and getting that landing just right.

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On "circling the runway."

 

 

That procedure is either called a "Circuit (UK)", or a "Traffic Pattern (USA)" depending on which side of the Atlantic you favor.

 

 

The first concept to learn is "flight visibility." It's the farthest distance from the cockpit which you can see and identify objects and terrain. The lowest (flight) visibility in which it's legal to land an F-5E just by looking out the canopy is 3 (statue...normal) miles. That means it's legal to fly along and never see the runway until you are just 3 miles from it, and never see the other airplanes landing on that same runway until you are 3sm from them too.

 

 

The training mission of course gives you the very best scenario for you to practice:

 

 

 

It's broad daylight.

 

The visibility is unlimited.

 

There are no clouds which force you to low level.

 

There are no other aircraft to separate yourself from for the landing.

 

 

So of course, you would ask what's the point of the traffic pattern in this situation? But consider the benefits the traffic pattern provides. It keeps you within 3 miles of the runway (you can see it), and keeps all the other airplanes close to the field at the same time (you can see them, they can see you, the Air Traffic Controller if present can see all of you).

 

 

There are extra benefits too. Visual cues on the runway's (and other traffic's) position help you with timing your approach procedure to allow you to easily reach the runway prepared for a safe landing.

 

 

Now it seems pretty handy... doesn't it?

 

 

In public DCS servers, the weather will almost never be a factor.. most missions are in daylight, a collision between aircraft is a slight embarrassment!

You'll find the use of proper airport procedures to be very lacking! Many people don't even bother to use the runways for takeoff and landing...

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Good point, i forgot f5 had autoflaps. It's been awhile since I flew that bird (I've been in mi8/ka50 most of the time lately)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] DCS: The most expensive free game you'll ever play

 

 

 

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I would suggest, for the f5 as well as any planes you buy in the future, you go to misspoke.com and download the appropriate chuck's guide, if you haven't already

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I am assuming you mean mudspike.com

 

Yup. It's an autocorrect typo.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] DCS: The most expensive free game you'll ever play

 

 

 

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Yep, I've got Chuck's guide, digesting it slowly.

 

So I applied the advice here, especially Tippis's advice to use the throttle to control altitude vice speed and managed to land it (yay!). The flight to the runway was a wild ride though, up and down all over the place. The response time between applying throttle and the plane actually rising was pretty slow and I'd still sometimes have to pull the stick back very gently to give it that extra.

 

Still confused about this whole flaps business. What are they doing when they are in AUTO? Then when you drop the landing gear you mean the flaps point downwards to bring the plane down?

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The short version is: flaps in general gives you more lift and more stability at low speed, but at the cost of more drag. They quite literally re-shape your wings to give you a different aerodynamic profile. You don't want them out at high speed because they slow you down when you want to go fast (and also, since they're large moving panels, you'll outright break them if you go too fast).

 

The F-5 simplifies the whole thing by having them automated, if you so choose: if you're slow, they come out automatically; if you're going fast, they retreat. They also help a little with keeping you on track if you're bleeding speed in hard turns. As part of this automation, the aircraft assumes that if your wheels are down, you're either landing or taking off — either way, you'll be wobbling about at low speed and could use a bit of extra lift. Thus, auto flaps + gear down = flaps extended.

 

Once you get into the whole business of in-flight breakdowns and emergency procedures, or with optimising your flight for range, you'll need to start learning about the manual flap settings. Until then, auto mode (flaps selection lever in the middle position; flaps thumb switch on the throttle in the aft position) is all you really need.

 

 

Also, congrats on the landing! :)

❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧

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You really can't go wrong with Laobi's tutorials either

 

The f5 one was rather tame for him, but it's an older vid

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] DCS: The most expensive free game you'll ever play

 

 

 

Modules: All of them

System:

 

I9-9900k, ROG Maximus , 32gb ram, RTX2070 Founder's Edition, t16000,hotas, pedals & cougar MFD, HP Reverb 1.2, HTC VIVE

 

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HoneyVipet,

 

Didn’t realize the flaps came down with the gear. Shows how little time I have in this pit. I flew this yesterday and swear that, when I peeked, there were no flaps until I hit the “F” key. Anyway, while far from perfect—I think this might only be my 3rd or 4th time in this aircraft—this is something like what it should feel as you’re coming in. I have the control inputs showing which may help you see what’s at work:

 

[YOUTUBE]IISEtuF-ITo


Edited by Ironhand

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg

 

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Win 10 Pro x64, ASUS Z97 Pro MoBo, Intel i7-4790K, EVGA GTX 970 4GB, HyperX Savage 32GB, Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB SSD, 2x Seagate Hybrid Drive 2TB Raid 0.

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Keep practicing, a good way to settle on your landing config is to fly your circuit, fly it at slower speeds or fly it dirty, with your gear down and flaps down, this way you will get the feel of flying slower and with the added drag, also you will learn how the plane flies during the turns with everything down, it sinks more with all that drag, do your turns coordinated otherwise the nose will wobble all over the place. Form those nice habits then fly it down, there's no problem if you setup for a longer approach and you can always do touch and go's until you can get your approach down and land it where you want it without any drama.

 

Remember not to chase your landing descent rate with the stick, set it up in a nice descent where you aim for the runway threshold, slow throttle inputs should keep you there not your stick. if you are too high and too fast pop the breaks up for a bit to get back into that nice landing approach.

 

Once you are close to the ground you can fly it all the way to the ground. It will take quite a lot of punishment, once you get better you can flare it nicely.

 

Just remember one thing! You can always GO AROUND!

 

If you get tired, take it up and whip it around. Go crazy with it, do all your aerobatics, go fast and high, stall it, do fly-by's and then get back to it.

 

It's an amazing airplane to fly.

 

Cheers,

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As SorelRo and others have noted, proper practice is the key. And the one thing not yet mentioned is to relax. If you have a death grip on the stick and throttle, your landing will be anything but smooth. Don't just stare at the instruments and runway. Look around. Keep your eyes moving. Glance out the canopy at the scenery. Enjoy the feel of the airceaft.

 

In the circuit, fly each segment as smoothly as you can. As soon as you start to feel out of control, fly out, consider what you might have done wrong, come in and try again with a slightly different approach to the task. Doing so will teach you how the aircraft handles at slower speeds and what you need to do to stay ahead of the aircraft. Once you can do it well for one jet aircraft, you'll be able to land any of them without much difficulty.

 

For quite awhile now, my first flight in any newly purchased aircraft is a circuit landing at an airbase that I know well. That flight tells me all I need to know about the aircraft's low speed handling. While some landings are admittedly smoother than others, none have broken the aircraft. All have taught me, in a single flight, what the aircraft's slow speed quirks are and what I need to pay strict attention to in those circumstances.

 

As a simple illustration, my 2nd landing in the MiG-21bis was a successful deadstick landing on a Novorossiysk beach. My first flight taught me that the MiG's extended flaps caused a extreme amount of drag. Even though I would normally extend my flaps as the speed slowed, I knew from that initial flight that, in this aircraft with my engines out, extending my flaps would be a death sentence. Instead I got to walk away and, IIRC, the aircraft was unbroken.

YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg

 

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Win 10 Pro x64, ASUS Z97 Pro MoBo, Intel i7-4790K, EVGA GTX 970 4GB, HyperX Savage 32GB, Samsung 850 EVO 250 GB SSD, 2x Seagate Hybrid Drive 2TB Raid 0.

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The F-5 is a very light fighter with somewhat under powered engines. Its easy to get behind the power curve if you are trying to drop too much altitude too fast. I would recommend being extremely careful about cutting the engines to idle until you are entering your flair. The "On Speed" Airspeed in the F-5 is highly dependent on weight, a full tank of gas or even a full load of guns makes a measurable difference. While having a target airspeed (manual offers calculations on this) is a good thing to keep in mind as you are setting up, I would recommend paying more attention to glide slope and AOA than airspeed. If you are on glide slope (VASI OR PAPI Lights are great for this if you are new to flying) and you have the green circle (I think 14 units for the F-5), you're pretty much good to maintain that all the way to your flair. Also on the flaps, they CAN be auto but they don't HAVE to be. Make sure that you check your configuration and that your controls aren't bound and overriding them, there is a slider on the throttle that controls Auto, Fixed and I think Emergency, obviously you want Auto, and there is a grey lever outboard the throttle that sets the position, you want that in the middle position. Then your flaps will adjust automatically in flight, and dump to full with the landing gear. I would caution against speed brakes, they complicate matters and could build bad habits, get on speed, on AOA, landing configuration, and trimmed out on the downwind leg. Once you get more comfortable you can start to move onto an overhead break. Also the F-5 is a VERY trim intensive aircraft, don't be afraid to hold some stick deflection on final, you have to prioritize your bandwidth during your approach, but when you have time, try to keep the "pressure" on the stick to a minimum to help keep things stable and allow you to focus on something other than fighting the airplane.`

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Thanks mate. I've had lots of attempts and seem to be getting better. Concentrating more on AoA and the lights. At the moment I'm focusing on other functions of the plane such as radar and weapons, but I'll be back at landing practice soon enough.

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