When to request startup?

Hi. I'm just wondering at what point in the (full) startup would you request startup from ATC? (I assume right after turning on the battery, or maybe after the APU... but before hitting the right engine ignition.

Thing is, when I do that, I don't get a response... so I feel like something hasn't been switched on, and ATC doesn't hear me. They DO seem to hear me when I request takeoff clearance, so again, something within the startup (after the APU startup) feels like it's required... unless I'm mistaken, which is also highly probable. :helpsmilie:

Can anyone fill me in on that? It seems like you CAN just skip that, but I'm wanting to 'be offical' and all that.

I don't know if the Request Taxi has the same issue, as I haven't really tested that out (...when the Request Startup fails, then the menu continues to offer Request Startup, rather than Request Taxi, I think).

If you get electrical power turned on for the aircraft, turn your radio on and set the correct freq for the airfield, then you can request startup and should get clearance for startup.

Cheers,

Done

Hi. I'm just wondering at what point in the (full) startup would you request startup from ATC? (I assume right after turning on the battery, or maybe after the APU... but before hitting the right engine ignition.

 

Thing is, when I do that, I don't get a response... so I feel like something hasn't been switched on, and ATC doesn't hear me. They DO seem to hear me when I request takeoff clearance, so again, something within the startup (after the APU startup) feels like it's required... unless I'm mistaken, which is also highly probable. :helpsmilie:

 

Can anyone fill me in on that? It seems like you CAN just skip that, but I'm wanting to 'be offical' and all that.

 

I don't know if the Request Taxi has the same issue, as I haven't really tested that out (...when the Request Startup fails, then the menu continues to offer Request Startup, rather than Request Taxi, I think).

I do it after starting the first (right) engine (assuming the usual APU startup). It's not realistic, and I do it mostly to get the ATC going, and for more immersion. My understanding is that IRL this sort of thing is done under ground crew direction (hand signals?) rather than by the tower. The DCS ATC is extremely limited, and compromises to realism have to be made. With a bit of luck someone on here who actually works as ground crew will explain.

A better simulation of the ground crew would be very welcome. If there's something I've come to appreciate from these sims it's that there's a group of people on the ground who do A LOT to get these airplanes in the air.

EDIT: The problem being that until the engine is running the radio doesn't have power, and it won't work. I think this has been discussed previously, and is the actual behaviour in the real aircraft. Alternatively, as suggested above, you can request external power so that you can use the radio, but, IIRC, I don't think this is done very often with the F-18 IRL.

IIRC in the US Navy, when deploying from the boat, jets are assigned start times which are put together by the squadrons' operations officers and the wing opsos and airboss. Thus there is no radio coordination. Pilots simply start their jets when they're expected to do so. I believe land-based ops are the same. However, someone who actually served might be better suited to confirm this.

TBH right now I dont think it matters. ATC is very sub par and I eagerly await its rebuild as ED has noted is in the works.

IIRC in the US Navy, when deploying from the boat, jets are assigned start times which are put together by the squadrons' operations officers and the wing opsos and airboss. Thus there is no radio coordination. Pilots simply start their jets when they're expected to do so. I believe land-based ops are the same. However, someone who actually served might be better suited to confirm this.

The start times are a preset time before the scheduled launch time. Not some grand plan by all the ops officers.

On shore, there is no request from ATC to start at Navy bases. The start time is either whenever the pilots want, or at an exact prebriefed time that the flight lead happens to decide.

The whole request startup thing is not something one is required to do most places.

It is more common outside of the United States but it really isn't all that common.

Some places have noise abatement rules restricting APU start until 30 minutes prior to filed departure time.

Occasionally, due to known traffic delays, "start" times are issued by ATC but that is mostly to keep folks from burning jet fuel unnecessarily.

I find the whole idea of ATC in DCS a bit silly and something they shouldn't waste time on.

The purpose of ATC is to separate traffic. DCS doesn't have enough traffic to warrant anything more than Common Traffic Advisory (Self announcing on common frequency)

The purpose of ATC is to separate traffic. DCS doesn't have enough traffic to warrant anything more than Common Traffic Advisory (Self announcing on common frequency)

From personal experience, this is true indeed for small airfields, but I'm thinking if you're landing at an airbase like Nellis or a big airport like Dubai Intl., you're contacting the ATC, even with minimal traffic. Plus, a lot of scenarios in DCS already feature heavy traffic, such as some Red Flag missions. It's up to the mission maker.

I would imagine that the request startup is more general for use, and therefore the reason it is present at all in the hornet module. I am glad to get the info you guys are updating us on, so now I won't waste time requesting a startup in the hornet.

Hi, guys. Wow, I go to bed, wake up, and find quite an active discussion on my little thread! Glad to see you guys!

I've had DCS for years, but am just now trying to do things 'by the book', rather than the traditional rookie 'just take off and fly around' kind of thing.

I've recently bought VoiceAttack, mostly for radio commands (ATC/Wingmen), to address the awkwardness of having to let go of the controls and repeatedly hitting keyboard keys (...plus, it feels cool to talk the commands, admittingly).

I've managed to set up all the ATC stuff to voice, as well as some of the commands whose switches are a bit hard to get at, or are things that are better/faster done via voice in the heat of battle.

The only snag I ran into so far was talking to the tower, as explained at the start of this thread. Ya, I figured it was a case of the radio not having power... and you seemingly end up with a catch-22 of needing to do the very thing you are trying to ask permission to do, before you can ask permission to do it.

I'll try the external power thing. I was always curious what that was for, and I have it successfully set up with voice, anyway.

I have to test if DCS skips the Request Startup menu item, and changes it to Request Taxi, once you have started up (...in which case, I can just skip asking for permission to start up, and only contact the tower after I have started up, and want to taxi (...and, hopefully, the menu will have replaced Startup with Taxi). Otherwise, it would be a thing where it would insist on having the Request Startup thing triggered (used) before it switches that to Request Taxi. Hopefully it switches based on engine status, rather than the player having to have requested startup first. I think the Taxi and Takeoff items work.

Ya, the ATC is basic, but for me that's good, as I'd prefer a simple (yet functional) version for me (currently), as I get used to things... otherwise, it would just be overwhelming (as I learn). I just want to get past the 'I own the skies and can do whatever I want' kind of mentality a rookie might operate on, as it adds so much more structure/immersion to have to go through routines and permissions... even if they are simplified.

Okay, I'll tinker with it some more, and see if I can either utilize external power to do the initial startup permission request, or just ignore that request (if the sim automatically switches the menu item to Request Taxi once the engine has been started).

The whole request startup thing is not something one is required to do most places.

 

It is more common outside of the United States but it really isn't all that common.

 

Some places have noise abatement rules restricting APU start until 30 minutes prior to filed departure time.

 

Occasionally, due to known traffic delays, "start" times are issued by ATC but that is mostly to keep folks from burning jet fuel unnecessarily.

 

I find the whole idea of ATC in DCS a bit silly and something they shouldn't waste time on.

 

The purpose of ATC is to separate traffic. DCS doesn't have enough traffic to warrant anything more than Common Traffic Advisory (Self announcing on common frequency)

This is a fact. A request to start engines from ATC is very very rare in the USA. Don’t know if any airports in the USA that require this off the top of my head.

Truthfully, I'd bet there are more non-towered airports in the USA than not. CTAF for announcing departure and landing, but it's more an announcement that others can hear and react to.

At towered airports, you may sometimes have separate ground, approach, and departure frequencies but that's more for ATC workload management. I think the kneeboard charts have the actual airspace outlined. I'd love to have a more complex ATC for controlling flow, but that really needs a more complex "civ traffic" setup that includes civ cars, ships/boats, and civ air traffic.

You DO however, request taxi clearance at towered airports. Construction, traffic flow etc means you may go one way today, and taxi another path the next. Then you hold short of turning onto runway, and are either cleared as you come up to it, or are gonna be cleared when the previous plane takes off or lands and gets out of the way.

Long Post just to say: start up and even taxi in DCS with no care in the world. I think the ATC can tell you to hold on takeoff if a silent player has communicated with ATC and is on final approach though. YMMV.

Hello again. While I understand that there's a lot to be said about what is correct in comparison to the real world, part of what I'm trying to establish/solve here is in terms of getting the sim's comm system to work.

So, for example, even though they may not (in real life) request for startup, the sim itself might insist on it in order for the menu to then change to a Request Taxi the next time I go on comms, after starting up.

I'll gladly skip asking for startup, but I can only do so if the sim allows me to request taxi and/or takeoff. I'm not sure how the ATC system works (if the menu change is based on your plane's status/location... or if it's based on programming flags that trigger after actions (ex. calling and receiving permission to start up, which then changes the menu to Request Taxi). That is, unless there's some direct way to ask (say) for Taxi Clearance without relying on the menu system, which would have to have switched over from Request Startup to Request Taxi).

However, if it's all broken (as far as startup/taxi/takeoff), I would just skip all that. I'm just trying to establish what works, and how to properly use it.

I should probably point out that I'm using simplified comms (although I am also manually dialing in frequencies, too). Not sure if the two clash. I may actually end up doing complex comms, since I seem to be doing most of it anyway. I have to look into all that more.

BTW, in case it isn't obvious, I'm talking about single player (AI ATC).

The AI ATC right now is super basic and linear.

Request startup -> Request Taxi -> Request Takeoff

You follow these steps through the comms, but most of the time they are broken and dont work.

You won't break the ATC if you don't request start up. The simulation knows when your engines start. When you're ready to taxi (before you move) you will have the ability to request taxi instructions.

How to turn on the UTC?? Ive tried everything!

From my own testing, it seems to offer more consistent experience if you request start up before you start engines, other times I have to request startup after starting my engines, before it will give me permission to taxi.

How to turn on the UTC?? Ive tried everything!

Including reading / searching the manual? :music_whistling: What all did you try until now? :)