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How are you supposed to learn this thing with these horrible training missions?


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I agree that that is one major pain in the rear, but out of curiosity: does any module allow you to repeat steps or navigate the training sessions?

 

No, none that I have come across. Maybe my imagination, but the Ka-50 ones seem to disappear more quickly. But, that may be down to the commands being more complex, or maybe it's because the helicopter cockpit is less familiar!


Edited by imacken

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I always pause whenever a new text is displayed. Then I can read it peacefully, have all the time needed to find any buttons mentioned, practice finger techniques, contemplate about anything related, read about corresponding information in the manual and be fully prepared when I unpause again.

Of course, if the trigger events doesn't make the instructions to continue, there is indeed a problem.

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I always pause whenever a new text is displayed. Then I can read it peacefully, have all the time needed to find any buttons mentioned, practice finger techniques, contemplate about anything related, read about corresponding information in the manual and be fully prepared when I unpause again.

Of course, if the trigger events doesn't make the instructions to continue, there is indeed a problem.

That is good advice.

I remember from another similar thread on A-10C, that there was a way of extracting the text that is shown on screen from a file, but i can't remember which. Maybe from the miz files themselves.

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Basically, in the same time you learn the Ka-50 or A10-C to full extend you could learn any language there is, at least enough to make yourself understood..LoL.

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So a quick update here:

In the startup tutorial it doesnt register engine start until i close the fuel cutoff after the engine is fully started

Its ****ing bullshit

 

Back, when I was learning the Shark, I made this list with the most useful tutorial videos that I found on YT .. give them a try:

 

 

:)

 

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I can now confirm that the missions we have been talking about are the same ones mentioned in the post above by clclidfan.

They are the ones integrated into the game, sadly, as is confirmed in the linked post.

 

Keep in mind that these missions were created by a member of the community. They were widely regarded as some of the best training missions, and the community was very pleased when ED incorporated them into the game to replace their own, outdated training missions.

 

I learned to fly the Ka-50 before these missions were available and it was a mite difficult I'm here to tell you. ;)

 

I haven't trained with Bigfoot's missions and can't say first hand how well they work. The thing is, they're community-made, and maybe you shouldn't judge them quite as harshly, and instead look for additional sources of information, like others have already suggested, instead of expecting to be spoon-fed every bit of information. This community is so diverse regarding our backgrounds, there'll probably never be training missions that cover everything for the complete beginner. Some people tried to do that, and stopped after just one lesson because of the insane amount of topics to cover.

 

In short, you can't just expect to sit back and be taught every step. There's a lot of initiative required to learn something as complex as the Shark and the Hog, and to the best of my knowledge these training missions do provide a very good introduction and I wish they'd already been around when I got the Shark.

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Keep in mind that these missions were created by a member of the community. They were widely regarded as some of the best training missions, and the community was very pleased when ED incorporated them into the game to replace their own, outdated training missions.

 

I learned to fly the Ka-50 before these missions were available and it was a mite difficult I'm here to tell you. ;)

 

I haven't trained with Bigfoot's missions and can't say first hand how well they work. The thing is, they're community-made, and maybe you shouldn't judge them quite as harshly, and instead look for additional sources of information, like others have already suggested, instead of expecting to be spoon-fed every bit of information. This community is so diverse regarding our backgrounds, there'll probably never be training missions that cover everything for the complete beginner. Some people tried to do that, and stopped after just one lesson because of the insane amount of topics to cover.

 

In short, you can't just expect to sit back and be taught every step. There's a lot of initiative required to learn something as complex as the Shark and the Hog, and to the best of my knowledge these training missions do provide a very good introduction and I wish they'd already been around when I got the Shark.

Good grief! No-one is talking about being spoon fed. I have spent months learning the Hog and the Spit, and have spent many years learning all sorts of flight sims. All the way back to Geoff Crammond's 'Aviator'. (How many remember that?)

This discussion is simply about the mechanics of the training missions not working well. It's as simple as that!

Let me repeat, the 2 issues are: 1) trigger events don't always move the mission on, and 2) it would be really helpful to total novices if the text didn't disappear from view soon after it was spoken. Let it stay on screen till the next event.

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Good grief! No-one is talking about being spoon fed.

 

You're probably right; I guess I should have directed my post more at the thread starter.

 

It's just that terms like "horrible" and "poor" (and some that are easily against the forum rules) seemed to imply a certain level of expectation that these missions probably never intended to live up to.

 

Or to put it differently: If I had created these missions, I'd have a lot of instinctive reactions while reading through this thread. Fixing the missions would be very low on that list.

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You're probably right; I guess I should have directed my post more at the thread starter.

 

It's just that terms like "horrible" and "poor" (and some that are easily against the forum rules) seemed to imply a certain level of expectation that these missions probably never intended to live up to.

 

Or to put it differently: If I had created these missions, I'd have a lot of instinctive reactions while reading through this thread. Fixing the missions would be very low on that list.

 

Yes, the problems being discussed here, are not unique to the Ka-50 misions. Both the issues mentioned are common throughout DCS modules. However, issue #1 in my previous post seems a bit worse in the Ka-50 examples.

It could be down to users - like me - being fairly unfamiliar with helicopters, and things taking longer to sink in, and all the inevitable mistakes that arise as a result!

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I have the feeling this thread keeps going in circles somehow. What I wanted to point out earlier, by the way, was that the inability to navigate the tutorials is a shortcoming of DCS, not a problem of the missions themselves.

 

The thing about different backgrounds is definitely true, but lets face it: I didn't quite get the feeling that having flown the Huey earlier gave me an edge during start-up. It sure does later on, but the first training mission is a bit of a level-ish playing field.

 

The tradeoff one always has to make when designing these is, that you either get the 'text disappears too soon and I can't keep up!' complaint when you put in somewhat longer explanations of how things are being done, or you the equally valid 'short texts walk me through getting this done but I don't understand much of it!' complaint.

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The tradeoff one always has to make when designing these is, that you either get the 'text disappears too soon and I can't keep up!' complaint when you put in somewhat longer explanations of how things are being done, or you the equally valid 'short texts walk me through getting this done but I don't understand much of it!' complaint.

 

The simple answer, as I've said before, is to not make the text disappear at all. Keep it on screen until the event is triggered.

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I just tried one of the training missions again and the text did indeed stay on for at least two minutes after the audio completed playing. I assume it stays on for quite a while then. No offence meant, but what are you doing by the side? Stepping away to paint your ceiling?

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I just tried one of the training missions again and the text did indeed stay on for at least two minutes after the audio completed playing. I assume it stays on for quite a while then. No offence meant, but what are you doing by the side? Stepping away to paint your ceiling?

It stays on for 1'40", but your comments are irrelevant as you are not looking at this from a complete novice's point of view. There is no need for it to disappear at all. Just go away when the event is triggered, as I have said a few times now.

With any training mission - or IRL, first flying lessons or driving lessons - the trainee is a complete novice. There is no point in you trying out the missions from an experienced pilot point of view. You don't need the training, you are familiar with the location of the controls, and the sequence of events.

Although this conversation is getting out of hand, let me give you some examples off the top of my head.

1) when a total novice is trying to deal with an actual sequence of switching where the order is critical. Then, it is necessary to review the training text, quite often more than once, as the switches may have to be returned to their original state. You will find that 1'40" goes very quickly at times. Instructions lost and restart required.

2) when the instructor issues commands for flying at xx knots, and yy feet and heading xxx, etc. etc. that may take some time to achieve, and in these training missions, there is not a great tolerance for the conditions to be met. Again, 1'40" is a short time under these circumstances, and it is impossible to retrieve the conditions one has to comply with in order for the instructor to move to the next command.

I wonder how flying or driving lessons would go for novices if the instructor was only allowed to speak once, and not be allowed to repeat his/her command!

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I use Chucks guides on a second screen now when I jump back in the Ka 50 or any aircraft, when it's been awhile since I flown for a quick refresher, I get the novice's part tho imacken, it can be very daunting when starting out.

 

Now I don't think it's a bad idea that some of this gets offloaded to the community occasionally, BigfootMSR has done an amazing job back then to do these training missions for the Ka 50 back in 01-25-2012. It would have taken a lot of time to put these together.

 

 

Once I had released that mission, I thought I could apply what I had learned to the Blackshark and set out to do just that. I watched the official videos over and over again laying out the mission verbiage and style on paper then more research to figure out how to set the triggers to see the various components of the cockpit. After many long hours of research and asking questions here on the forum, we have the missions as they are today. While I personally feel there is always room for improvement, and I am all ears, I feel these missions are complete. Each of these missions took about 20 hours each with the cold startup taking approximately 40 hours due to a lack of knowledge to complete. The Advanced ABRIS training also took about 40 hours due to the amount of information and complexity it has. In the end, I am always open for suggestions and above all else, I hope this effort has been helpful in helping new pilots get flying sooner and enjoying the game faster.

 

WOW, Thanks BigfootMSR

 

Perhaps an update is needed, by the community? It would be better to just change the triggers, Just add more time for text? Use the space bar more? Similar to some of the the Mig21 training and not rely on the triggered actions as much.

 

Looking at the Mig 21 startup, it has "cockpit argument in range" in the conditions section. min 0.5 Max 1, this has to work before the training removes the last highlighted item etc.

 

The Mig 21's arguments seem to be coded in order I.E Element Name PNT_153

Next trigger = cockpit argument in range 153. min 0.5 / Max 1

 

The other models such as the A10 and Ka 50 seem to be all over the place, seems the arguments number is not written into the name like they did on the Mig 21 etc.

 

Does anyone know how you find and match these arguments for the Ka 50?

 

COMM-PWR-AVSK-PTR = (286)

COMM-PWR-UKV-2-PTR = (284)

 

What does the MIN: and MAX: do for the "argument" in the conditions?

 

I guess this is where the sim gets stuck at times and stops moving forward? Most of the MINIMUMS: are set to 1, where the mig's MIN is set to 0.5. mmm?

 

Note:

I found this thread: UH-1 Huey - Mission Editor-Trigger Conditions, Actions, Arguments & Values and saw that DSPALLASVI went through the lua files and collected all the argument and values and put them all in nicely formatted PDF for the Huey!!

 

So I guess the arguments are all set correctly for the KA 50, just need to add more time and possibly pause more at certain places and use the space bar more to continue would be a better option for the beginner.

 

As the title reads...

 

Half of the time it doesnt even register me clicking anything... They are literally broken and there is no touches on how actually to take off, for example everytime i pull up the collective it does half a back flip and i can recover fine but as soon as i move the cyclic a tenth of a centimeter back it does the whole backflip thing again... kind of disappointed in these missions sad.gif

 

The part the OP wrote about taking off or flying a helicopter is the real hard part, it's sort of expected at the DCS level of sim you would know or have read a great deal and watched some videos etc, as the physics and systems are the closest we get in a simulator on PC, I mean would you jump in a real Ka 50 and just have a crack at it lol. Yes, it's still just a sim and when starting out you just want to get going and do everything NOW, this adds to the frustration tho, lol.

 

That part of the sim is very much helped my this great community, someone will even jump in game and be happy to spend time with you, getting you on your way, this is more important for the KA 50 as it takes a bit to get your head around the Autopilot, once you get the Oh that's what it's doing, you realize it takes much of the workload off the single seat pilot to make it easier to fight with all by yourself.

 

-

ka50training1.jpg.9c40157d4d293d0f3c4645df234d4933.jpg


Edited by David OC
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I have gone through the startup training mission a few times now and from what I can tell all is good for the startup mission, I will upload a video showing this soon. The speed is OK, perhaps it's a little too fast for the non TrackIR uses to keep up?

 

If you practice the startup a few times you should be good enough to keep up with the flow. Video soon..

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Speaking of videos, this 7-part tutorial was one of the most helpful videos I've ever seen on the Ka-50:

 

DCS Black Shark Ka-50 Leading Edge Training Lesson - Startup (Part 1)

 

(Parts 2 and following should be linked on YT)

 

Image and audio quality are pretty poor from today's perspective, but content-wise this is still top-notch IMHO.

 

Doing a hands-on training after that should be a fair bit easier.

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I have gone through the startup training mission a few times now and from what I can tell all is good for the startup mission, I will upload a video showing this soon. The speed is OK, perhaps it's a little too fast for the non TrackIR uses to keep up?

 

If you practice the startup a few times you should be good enough to keep up with the flow. Video soon..

 

David,

With all due respect, you are missing the point of what is being said here.

There is nothing wrong with the missions in terms of the excellent content provided by BigfootMSR.

If you know your way around the Ka-50 - both its cockpit and systems - then there is no issue. But, as I said, that is missing the point of what is being said here.

I won't repeat what has already been said here already, but believe me, it is very easy for the 100 seconds of time to be taken up before the text disappears IF YOU ARE NOT FAMILIAR with the environment and controls.

Just because you are not experiencing the issue, doesn't mean it doesn't exist!

The start up mission is probably the simplest and least likely to fail the novice as it tends to involve fairly straightforward steps.

A number of times during the navigation mission, I have been left scratching my head about what to do next as the text has disappeared, and my BS has flown off somewhere it shouldn't!

Others describing the systems and their various options have the same issues, as complicated menus (for first time viewers) are difficult to navigate through and get the right combination to trigger the event to move on.

There are also quite complex (100s of words) instructions and need several steps to complete and when that text disappears? Yep, it's a restart, and when you've just spent 20-30 minutes getting to a point, that becomes tedious and frustrating.

Other examples are when you are told to reach a certain altitude, speed and heading, etc. and then do task x and y, it is impossible when the text has gone to remember the sequence especially given the tolerances built in.

The simple asnswer to all the training missions in DCS is to either

1) don't let the text disappear at all until the event has been triggered, or

2) keep the text on screen until the space bar is pressed.

Simple solution, I would think!


Edited by imacken

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Imacken, guy's like Yurgon and I want to do all we can to help here for the new guy's.

 

We get the steps from beginner to the moment you finally start to get it, yes it can be very hard, Yurgon was a little disappointed with some comments, if you look a little deeper, that's why I posted.

 

 

Once I had released that mission, I thought I could apply what I had learned to the Blackshark and set out to do just that. I watched the official videos over and over again laying out the mission verbiage and style on paper then more research to figure out how to set the triggers to see the various components of the cockpit. After many long hours of research and asking questions here on the forum, we have the missions as they are today. While I personally feel there is always room for improvement, and I am all ears, I feel these missions are complete. Each of these missions took about 20 hours each with the cold startup taking approximately 40 hours due to a lack of knowledge to complete. The Advanced ABRIS training also took about 40 hours due to the amount of information and complexity it has. In the end, I am always open for suggestions and above all else, I hope this effort has been helpful in helping new pilots get flying sooner and enjoying the game faster.

 

 

BigfootMSR, (Forum member, not part of ED) went out of his way to try and fill this gap for the community and spent 100 hours trying to do the right thing here for the community, right...

 

I'm trying to get to the bottom of this gap, if there is one "in general"? and try and find a Solution to the problem here, I'm happy to modify the training missions that BigfootMSR made, I'm asking where do you think the main problems are in these mission?

 

ED's guy's do the BIG heavy lifting, you know the PC in a PC things such as the ABRIS system for the Ka 50. Then write the manual for something like this...hard to break down and to what level should they, and spend how much time on doing this? Still, better than military manuals for the simmer I guess.

 

Still hard to read tho, then a great guy come's along like Chuck and makes these awesome manuals and builds a "Tutorial Library" that tries and break things way down for the community. Time spent to make these.....? I would hate to ask really, thanks Chuck. Yep, one there for the Ka-50 Black Shark

 

I'm willing to help change these "community built training missions" that BigfootMSR made for this community if this needs doing. What do you think needs changing ? When does it need to pause? When should it move on? When should the space bar be hit etc etc. I will try and modify them and post them here for others to test the changes when time permits.

 

Then we could perhaps submit them back to ED.

 

Or we could just keep complaining about the thoughtful community built training missions here...

 

P.S. This very forum is the final level of training when you don't quite understand something and need a little hand to put it altogether, and there are many here willing to help by posting explanations, links and other types of training videos.

 

Please just reread this post imacken, I think you'll understand where I was coming from.

-


Edited by David OC

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Imacken, guy's like Yurgon and I want to do all we can to help here for the new guy's.

David, I understand that, and any help for people is gratefully received by them I'm sure.

However, we are not really discussing how to help people fly, we are simply discussing the deficiencies of the training mission system in DCS, and here in BS2 in particular.

There are so many issues in addition to the 'text staying on screen' one. In the BS2 missions, one of the biggest is the fact that, despite what the instructor says. that mouse clicks don't always register. Sometimes it requires the equivalent key press to get the mission moving, which then requires going to the 'Adjust controls' menu to find out what the key is, if inevitably the text has moved off the screen.

Also, sometimes a mouse click doesn't register, and after a lot of trial and error, you work out that sometimes a long click is necessary to get the event moving.

I don't really know why there is so much resistance to helpful suggestions like, 'keep the text onscreen until the event is triggered'.

All we are trying to do is improve the whole DCS experience for everyone when clear deficiencies are obvious.

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The simple asnswer to all the training missions in DCS is to either

1) don't let the text disappear at all until the event has been triggered, or

2) keep the text on screen until the space bar is pressed.

Simple solution, I would think!

 

I think I see what you're asking for, and the request makes sense.

 

I haven't seen BigfootMSR around in a while, his last public forum activity was recorded in 2016. Maybe you should send him a PM and ask him if he would like to work some more on these missions. If you do that... you might not want to direct him to this thread, though. Seeing as his missions are called "horrible" in the title. Not usually a good way to get someone to help you: "Hey, would you do me a favor and adjust your horrible missions, please?"

 

I hope you see where I'm getting at. You're not talking to ED, who sold the module. You're talking to other members of the community, each of us investing our own spare time to help you out.

 

Your suggestions make sense, but someone will have to implement them. Most likely for free. One thing you could do would be to create a new thread with these requests and clearly label it as "wishlist".

 

On the other hand... we've all gone through the same problems you're going through. Black Shark was my first DCS module. Yeah, I know it's tough and overwhelming and the training could always be better. But you sometimes make it sound as if these missions are actively keeping you from learning the chopper, while you've been given many pointers to other resources and also hints on how to work around the problems by using the pause function for example.

 

Insisting that you're right doesn't mean anything's gonna be changed. Even if you are right. ;)

 

If I read correctly, David OC offered to implement your suggestions. That would be a great update! I just wouldn't want to go through someone else's missions, I usually go crazy trying to figure out how they organized their triggers and other logic. David OC, if you're really up for it, best of luck! :thumbup:

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I think the advice to pause when the text comes up is brilliant, in the why didn't I think of that kind of way.

 

The easiest thing for DCS to do, which would provide the best functionality, is to add a little scroll bar so that all text can be re-read at the pilot's leisure. It wouldn't be a lot of coding, and the text could fade to de-clutter the display, but with a cursor pass-over it could be made to reappear and scrolled through at will. Here's hoping someone at ED finds the time to do this, one of these patches.

 

Now, where can I post my gripes about the keybinding interface :P

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The easiest thing for DCS to do, which would provide the best functionality, is to add a little scroll bar so that all text can be re-read at the pilot's leisure.

 

Good idea!

 

The thing about DCS is that it improves in increments. Nowadays, several text items appear below each other. In earlier days, each item replaced the previous one. Any mishap with triggers or timings, and the previous text was gone.

 

I'm sure the coder who made text stackable also thought about a live-history, but there probably wasn't enough time to implement it at the time.

 

Now, where can I post my gripes about the keybinding interface :P

 

Oh my! I must be sounding like one of those grampas talking about the war now, but the previous interface wasn't half as good as the current one. And we couldn't even bind keys while flying a mission - players actually had to quit, assign the keys, and start the mission all over again (or re-connect to the server and pick a new slot). Whatever problems you have now, I've seen worse. ;)

 

Okay, end of history lessen. :D

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I think I see what you're asking for, and the request makes sense.

 

I haven't seen BigfootMSR around in a while, his last public forum activity was recorded in 2016. Maybe you should send him a PM and ask him if he would like to work some more on these missions. If you do that... you might not want to direct him to this thread, though. Seeing as his missions are called "horrible" in the title. Not usually a good way to get someone to help you: "Hey, would you do me a favor and adjust your horrible missions, please?"

 

I hope you see where I'm getting at. You're not talking to ED, who sold the module. You're talking to other members of the community, each of us investing our own spare time to help you out.

 

Your suggestions make sense, but someone will have to implement them. Most likely for free. One thing you could do would be to create a new thread with these requests and clearly label it as "wishlist".

 

On the other hand... we've all gone through the same problems you're going through. Black Shark was my first DCS module. Yeah, I know it's tough and overwhelming and the training could always be better. But you sometimes make it sound as if these missions are actively keeping you from learning the chopper, while you've been given many pointers to other resources and also hints on how to work around the problems by using the pause function for example.

 

Insisting that you're right doesn't mean anything's gonna be changed. Even if you are right. ;)

 

If I read correctly, David OC offered to implement your suggestions. That would be a great update! I just wouldn't want to go through someone else's missions, I usually go crazy trying to figure out how they organized their triggers and other logic. David OC, if you're really up for it, best of luck! :thumbup:

I think I clearly need to book myself onto a communications course!

1) I am not complaining about the missions stopping me learning the Ka-50

2) I am not complaining about BigfootMSR's huge effort in producing the training missions

3) I am not insisting I am right, just making a helpful suggestion as to how ALL DCS training missions could avoid the frustrations that people experience

4) using the word 'horrible' is not something I have done.

5) I fully realise I am not speaking to ED. I have spent many years helping others on all sorts of forums, so I am aware of how much time we spend for free helping others.

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David, I understand that, and any help for people is gratefully received by them I'm sure.

However, we are not really discussing how to help people fly, we are simply discussing the deficiencies of the training mission system in DCS, and here in BS2 in particular.

There are so many issues in addition to the 'text staying on screen' one. In the BS2 missions, one of the biggest is the fact that, despite what the instructor says. that mouse clicks don't always register. Sometimes it requires the equivalent key press to get the mission moving, which then requires going to the 'Adjust controls' menu to find out what the key is, if inevitably the text has moved off the screen.

Also, sometimes a mouse click doesn't register, and after a lot of trial and error, you work out that sometimes a long click is necessary to get the event moving.

I don't really know why there is so much resistance to helpful suggestions like, 'keep the text onscreen until the event is triggered'.

All we are trying to do is improve the whole DCS experience for everyone when clear deficiencies are obvious.

 

I do know where your coming from imacken and agree with you that the training can always be updated to be that little bit better and I'm here to help, you seem to be resisting us too by not discussing away forward.

 

We just went full circle here and we are back to (1) ED doing more of the heavy lifting. You know the PC in a PC thing, now it's an interactive flight training simulation in a flight simulation, What the?, cRazy right... That's ED for you...

 

ED should just do it like the other sims have done it perhaps, wait a minute, they don't do it. The three letter fighter sim has 3 manuals, two of the manuals are to explain the updates for the first manual, little confusing for the beginner and they rely very very heavily on the community. Many give up because of the workload.

 

The civi 737 I fly has 3000 pages of real Boeing documents supplied with it and a good flight walkthrough, still no interactive training here. YouTube is your friend here, plus I paid for a full video course off a 3rd party site. Angle of attack and airline2sim started businesses around this missing piece of the puzzle for the beginner pilot.

 

There is no "resistance" here imacken, Ed's got lots on their plate at the moment and for the foreseeable future, there has been issues to continue on, in training missions, seen it for the Mig 21 etc. I Guess there could be an update syncing? issue that ED needs to look at down the track.

 

Is this in the Bug section too? Will take a look, I'm guessing yes.

 

What can we do to as a community here and now to help?

 

The new cadet I think needs to step up more and commit oneself to the curriculum at hand (OK their not in the Air force just yet, lol) they should go ask for help if they need things explained in a different way.

 

I was going to go through the missions and record them, then take some notes to see if they could be changed easily at certain positions to help the situation in sim. Then I was also thinking these videos of the training may also help here for the beginner? They get to see want you need to do, to get through them and they have rewind and fast forward. See, once you get into the flow, you possibly can run through these training missions without a hitch and then will be able to do them over and over no problems.

 

All I can say it's not easy trying to cater for everyone and everyone's level. This cannot be just left up to Ed and for them to come up with the perfect training system simulation and curriculum that suits everyone. It's impossible setup the perfect system to spoon feed the new guys, which are all at different levels and ability, they need to do some homework here to help integrate themselves to the level of simulations in DCS.

 

Off to test a few of the harder missions, been a while since I've done this training, I vaguely remember downloading them years back before they were included in sim.

 

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Edited by David OC

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