New MIRAGE 2000 Flight Model

I apologize if this is been posted before, I just found it last night. It may be a good reference for the flight model performance:

 

He goes from 1 to 7.5 G MUCH faster than possible ingame, confirming that something is indeed wrong with the FM.

Ingame the G onset is way too slow, i.e. the FCS slows all pitch inputs to an excessive degree. That much is very clear from watching that video.

But wouldn't that amount of saturation limit my aft range of pitch? Or, make it very abrupt?

It would but I just realized he has the slider checkbox selected. So forward stick would move the indicator to the left in this case. You have to use slider for this because otherwise the curve is applied symmetric to both forward and aft stick movement.

If I understand correctly the physical forward throw of the stick is just a few inches (3 or 4) but the aft movement is much greater (12-14).

That's my understanding as well. Not sure of the exact displacement but forward travel is typically much smaller than aft.

The axis tuning is very powerful, this is what I used to do to emulate the asymmetric stick throw.

 

 

Really helpful Vladinsky, thanks a lot!

And what about the 31AoA hard stop limit, does it perform the same way? So a full stick beyond the elastic stop will always command a 31 AoA (or 11g) or would it command 2 more AoA deg for a specific flight condition (in later case i don't see how it would fulfill the designed purpose)?

Wichever come first if you are above the corner speed it will be a 11G limitation because you will get 11G before getting 31deg, below corner speed the limitation will be 31deg because it will comes first.

According to SOP of squadron and dassault it should be designed for emergency but some use it on dailybasis.

For info pilot used to fly trought the auto pilot, there is a trigger behind the stick, pilot press that trigger and move the stick to pilot with trigger pressed, then when they release the stick and trigger the aircraft get auto trimed in ATTITUDE to the desired position. Pilots sais it's very very convenient!

If not flown through AP pilots uses hat trim.

Wichever come first if you are above the corner speed it will be a 11G limitation because you will get 11G before getting 31deg, below corner speed the limitation will be 31deg because it will comes first.

According to SOP of squadron and dassault it should be designed for emergency but some use it on dailybasis.

 

For info pilot used to fly trought the auto pilot, there is a trigger behind the stick, pilot press that trigger and move the stick to pilot with trigger pressed, then when they release the stick and trigger the aircraft get auto trimed in ATTITUDE to the desired position. Pilots sais it's very very convenient!

 

If not flew through AP pilots uses hat trim.

So if the wings cannot produce a lift for a 11g turn, a full aft stick will always command an 31AoA turn, no more - no less , right?

I know that this is an emergency tool, have talked recently with a real 2K pilot and he told me that it's used to avoid a ground crash and if a 11g turn is performed, the aircraft would be grounded for inspection.

Now, regarding the ''normal'' 29 AoA limit, is this a 1g flight limit like the 25AoA in the F-16? http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6178

What exactly commands the stick deflection (till the elastic stop) in the Mirage 2000, AoA or G's?

What exactly commands the stick deflection (till the elastic stop) in the Mirage 2000, AoA or G's?

It depends on the speed.

Above 300kt, it's max G (and you'll get that down to roughly 350kt CAS).

Below 300kt, it's max AoA.

It's not that much "no more/ no less". It's more "everything the airframe can safely give".

The auto pilot trim for pitch and roll. So if you're landing with imbalance (2 missiles shot on the same side) engage the AP in attitude mode. Take correct AoA (14°), then you can disengage AP and you're perfectly trimmed for final approach.

The FBW constantly trims for yaw.

It's different system than the F-16.

For instance,

F-16:

- CAT I: 9G/ 25° AoA

- CAT III: 18° AoA => but you can still do over-G

Mirage 2000:

- AA: 8.5G +/- 0.5 & 29° AoA

- CHARGES: 5.5G +/- 0.5. You're warned not to get about 20° AoA, and it starts to yell around 18°. But you can do it up to 29° AoA. Depending on stores, you may have nasty behavior.

He goes from 1 to 7.5 G MUCH faster than possible ingame, confirming that something is indeed wrong with the FM.

 

Ingame the G onset is way too slow, i.e. the FCS slows all pitch inputs to an excessive degree. That much is very clear from watching that video.

Which part of the vid? I don't see anything different from what we have already..

The problem seam to be when the plane hit 7-7.5Gs it will keep getting more Gs but at a much slower rate.

Which part of the vid? I don't see anything different from what we have already..

Watch when'ever he does sharp pulls, the plane reacts immediately and fast, the G going from 1 to 7+ in less than a second. You simply can't do it that fast ingame, the FCS significantly slowing down the onset of Gs.

Try it out ingame, press control Y so you can see how slowly the G builds up. Making the abrupt turns we see in the real life video are impossible to recreate.

I wonder when Razbam will announce officially the new changes in the flight model in the official changelog and put it in the stable version once for all? because, please correct me if I wrong guys, but it is only in the beta and no in the stable and alpha, isn't it?

I wonder when Razbam will announce officially the new changes in the flight model in the official changelog and put it in the stable version once for all? because, please correct me if I wrong guys, but it is only in the beta and no in the stable and alpha, isn't it?

The updated FM is in all branches.

Did Razbam tested the model like Heatblur did with the tomcat with former pilots?

And if possible a "geek" pilot not only a "oh yeah it turn right when i put stick right like the real one" pilots.

I just tested it again, i got huge PIO when using the mechanic stop ending in ripping wings off, impossible on real 2000.

The roll rate is good but the feeling you got when you release the stick is more a feeling of stopping the roll by adding adverse stick roll input to have sharp stop.

The motion of the aircraft regarding the stick travell look weird as well, not enough motion for the proper stick Input. real jets are sensitive as **** especially the Dassault planes.

can somebody confirm me about Raz testing the model with real pilots?

Did Razbam tested the model like Heatblur did with the tomcat with former pilots?

And if possible a "geek" pilot not only a "oh yeah it turn right when i put stick right like the real one" pilots.

 

I just tested it again, i got huge PIO when using the mechanic stop ending in ripping wings off, impossible on real 2000.

 

The roll rate is good but the feeling you got when you release the stick is more a feeling of stopping the roll by adding adverse stick roll input to have sharp stop.

 

The motion of the aircraft regarding the stick travell look weird as well, not enough motion for the proper stick Input. real jets are sensitive as **** especially the Dassault planes.

 

can somebody confirm me about Raz testing the model with real pilots?

Just curious, What airspeed and altitude did it happen at? My friend experienced a strange PIO, clean jet, with full aft stick on the deck at roughly .95M

@plaiskool, I suggest you go and read this, please: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=197059

You'll notice that the things you ask about are known since before the updage was published ;)

Better? :)

Cheers,

Az'

Did Razbam tested the model like Heatblur did with the tomcat with former pilots?

And if possible a "geek" pilot not only a "oh yeah it turn right when i put stick right like the real one" pilots.

 

I just tested it again, i got huge PIO when using the mechanic stop ending in ripping wings off, impossible on real 2000.

 

The roll rate is good but the feeling you got when you release the stick is more a feeling of stopping the roll by adding adverse stick roll input to have sharp stop.

 

The motion of the aircraft regarding the stick travell look weird as well, not enough motion for the proper stick Input. real jets are sensitive as **** especially the Dassault planes.

 

can somebody confirm me about Raz testing the model with real pilots?

I have exactly the same feeling.

I have tried with different configuration, it is better with some load, but must still improved on this point.

One of my colleague, a former F-16 pilot, have the same feeling. He tried also Falcon BMS and was impressed by the FM.

One of my colleague, a former F-16 pilot, have the same feeling. He tried also Falcon BMS and was impressed by the FM.

Which FM, F-16 or Mirage 2000 ? :smilewink:

@plaiskool, I suggest you go and read this, please: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=197059

You'll notice that the things you ask about are known since before the updage was published ;)

Az'

Chiiiiiiiiiiiib, thanks!

The main issue to me atm is the excessive dampening of pitch input which makes the almost instant build up of G's we see with the real aircraft impossible.

An important question is also wether the M2000's FCS is so intrusive/powerful as to completely prevent the pilot from ever exceeding 9 G's even momentarily with an abrupt pull on the stick?

An important question is also wether the M2000's FCS is so intrusive/powerful as to completely prevent the pilot from ever exceeding 9 G's even momentarily with an abrupt pull on the stick?

Why wouldn't it ?

Pilot commands are not directly transferred to the control surfaces, so even with abrupt stick input the FBW would be able to maintain its limitations.

IIRC the Mirage allows up to 11G when passing the elastic limit.

The main issue to me atm is the excessive dampening of pitch input which makes the almost instant build up of G's we see with the real aircraft impossible.

 

An important question is also wether the M2000's FCS is so intrusive/powerful as to completely prevent the pilot from ever exceeding 9 G's even momentarily with an abrupt pull on the stick?

Nope, if the pilot pull aft stick he gonna see the stars pretty quick then get G-loc if not ready or warmed up.

FCS "does NOT" prevent the ONESET of G's, what i mean by that is that is doesn't take 3 second to go to 9g, mirage can build up to 11G's very quickly, pilot will "break" before the aircraft. :)

FCS does prevent overshooting G/AoA limit!

Which FM, F-16 or Mirage 2000 ? :smilewink:

F-16, but he made some flight on the backseat of the 2000 in real life.

Why wouldn't it ?

 

Pilot commands are not directly transferred to the control surfaces, so even with abrupt stick input the FBW would be able to maintain its limitations.

 

IIRC the Mirage allows up to 11G when passing the elastic limit.

The last bit is exactly my point, because its completely impossible atm. With the current FM you cannot, nomatter how hard you try, pass 9 G's, even momentarily. The ingame FCS slows down the G onset so much as to make it impossible, i.e. no elasticity at all.

As a result the ingame Mirage 2000 cannot pull off anywhere near as abrupt changes in pitch/G as the real aircraft, something which is made abundantly clear when watching HUD recordings from the real thing.

In short it is clear to me that the current FM is NOT realistic as it simply looks nothing like the real thing.

In short it is clear to me that the current FM is NOT realistic as it simply looks nothing like the real thing.

:doh:

Great Mr. Expert.

What of the thousands of code lines is wrong as well as the (atm possible) G-Buildup problem?

:doh:

 

Great Mr. Expert.

 

What of the thousands of code lines is wrong as well as the (atm possible) G-Buildup problem?

Im no expert, but it's hard to argue against video evidence.

But by all means facepalm all you want, I'm simply stating I see a clear (night and day) discrepancy between the DCS FM and the real thing. If in your opinion I'm an idiot for pointing that out, then so be it. I did believe that's what the forum was for however, i.e. pointing out percieved discrepancies.

Im no expert, but it's hard to argue against video evidence.

 

But by all means facepalm all you want, I'm simply stating I see a clear (night and day) discrepancy between the DCS FM and the real thing. If in your opinion I'm an idiot for pointing that out, then so be it. I did believe that's what the forum was for however, i.e. pointing out percieved discrepancies.

I never called you an idiot nor I denied open issues with the FM. But taking a bad quality video of unknown origin showing a plane, maybe a M2000 and concluding that the complete FM is far from the original one based on this video deserves not more then :doh:

But maybe we simply have different views of what an evidence is...