Setting realistic expectations for the Hornet

The very next time a few hours later you come in and you are dropping like a rock just 200 ft away on approach going full throttle hearing LSO (screaming "POWER") catching the 1 wire and getting a no grade or missing the wires and boltering. This is due to the thermals going on near the ship and the burble. A wicked combination no doubt.

 

I hope DCS studies this but I will not be surprised if they don't implement it because they may wish to focus on what most flight simmers want which is shooting guns and missles and dropping bombs.

 

I hope DCS gives due focus to CV ops as you describe, I want them and for a study sim jet it ought to be implemented. Hopefully not too much catering to the "shoot and drop things" crowd.

+1

 

Please keep going with amazing stories about trainings and advises to handle the beast :thumbup:. Do you have tips about air refueling ?

Ah air refueling. Let me tell you about air refueling in the F18C. First off, unlike carrier landings this really does have many nuances that can be applied.

Every pilot has there own unique way of getting the probe in the basket and there is no single correct way of doing it.

Unfortunately this opens up to all kinds of success and failure rates but unlike killing yourself (and others) on the ship for using a bad "technique" you are simply sent back to the back of the que or you are told to go home (alternate airfield).

I was fortunate in that I had very little trouble getting the probe in the basket and plugged in quickly almost every time, but it was never easy and required a tons of focus and effort.

Because I was in and out so quick, I got a chance to stick around flying form on the tanker watch others make their attempts while waiting for the rest of my cohorts.

I remember watching this marine pilot, try multiple times and never get in, and it was nerve wracking to watch because he came very close to ripping off his pitot tube which would have resulted in an emergency flight back to the airfield. The Pitot tube is a primary input for the flight control computers. If you are hamfisting the stick and you let the probe come off the lip of the basket it can cause the basket to violently whip around and smack against the nose of the aircraft. This is never good and rarely seen.

That's typically the C130 scenario with the soft hose, now the big air force tankers like the KC135 that was a whole different game, you start messing around with that solid boom, there's a good chance that operator in the tail is going to retract the boom and wave buh bye as you are sent home in disgrace.:cry:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZV3Ffm2qIQ

Ah air refueling. Let me tell you about air refueling in the F18C...

I remember watching this marine pilot, try multiple times and never get in, and it was nerve wracking to watch because he came very close to ripping off his pitot tube which would have resulted in an emergency flight back to the airfield. ...

Like this

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Stories1/001-100/0010_F-18_Refueling/story0010.htm

Since we have a Hornet-Driver around here, I have a question.

Did you ever used the 10x AIM-120 2x AIM-9 loadout in Combat?

Heh, great question and right on topic.

The only time I ever heard of the C having this loadout was during trials and initial testing.

Simply put the drag forces make this extremely unrealistic and the old saying of "putting all your eggs in one basket" applies.

These hollywood pictures of jets decked out with max missiles or bombs is just that hollywood.

There is a realistic balance between loadouts and peformance that must always be considered in real life. I won't go into detail for obvious reasons.

The other factor that nobody considers is weight. Taking off with a ton of missiles or a full rack of bombs, is doable but landing (especially on the ship) because of an aborted mission or emergency not so much.

I remember this one time I took off with two mk82s just two mind you, and I have a hud failure right as I go airborne. After consulting with my CO on the ship, we decided I would come back with the bombs so as to not waste them. Keep in mind my CO had faith in my stick flying based on a good track record for landing on the ship that I had built up. Had he not he would have ordered me to jettison the bombs.

Remember with no hud, the primary AOA reference is gone and you are forced to use the backup indicator on the dash. This makes the big wigs nervous because hornet pilots never land without the hud full up.

As I hoped, I had no problems making the numbers and got an OK underline (better than an OK) which is only given for well made emergency landings.

The one thing that stood out for me was when I landed I could literally feel weight of the bombs stress the wings and the body of the aircraft, it was quite a force and made me appreciate the plane that much more.

I was always envious of the navy pilots that got a chance to fly the F16 via the exchange programs.

 

Although the falcon is not as good a dogfighter as the hornet she was built for speed. Just looking at those razor thin wings and engine dominated fuselage told you that she was the corvette of jetfighters and could leave the hornet in the dust if she wanted too. I would have loved to flown in that plane and marvel at her performance.

 

Looking forward to the day ED does the F16.

Was it common for you guys to fly dissimilar training with/against other aircraft like the F-16? AFAIK, most of our pilots train daily on the squadron missions and once a blue moon got to fly against dissimilar aircraft.

Like this

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Stories1/001-100/0010_F-18_Refueling/story0010.htm

Actually the basket stayed on the fuel probe. Look straight down under the plane's side number, see that little pointy metal thing sticking out the side of the plane, that's the pitot tube, had the basket been flailing around hitting the nose it could rip that probe right off. The fuel probe itself is a tough piece of hardware and won't likely be ripped off but it could be bent.

That basket by the way is actually pretty heavy (I am guessing 20 to 30lbs). Imagine a 30lb weight whipping around your head, nerve wracking.

Look straight down under the plane's side number, see that little pointy metal thing sticking out the side of the plane, that's the pitot tube, ...

Look like an AOA probe, we got those on the F-16. Anyway, thanks.

Ah air refueling. Let me tell you about air refueling in the F18C. First off, unlike carrier landings this really does have many nuances that can be applied.

 

Every pilot has there own unique way of getting the probe in the basket and there is no single correct way of doing it.

 

Unfortunately this opens up to all kinds of success and failure rates but unlike killing yourself (and others) on the ship for using a bad "technique" you are simply sent back to the back of the que or you are told to go home (alternate airfield).

 

I was fortunate in that I had very little trouble getting the probe in the basket and plugged in quickly almost every time, but it was never easy and required a tons of focus and effort.

 

Because I was in and out so quick, I got a chance to stick around flying form on the tanker watch others make their attempts while waiting for the rest of my cohorts.

 

I remember watching this marine pilot, try multiple times and never get in, and it was nerve wracking to watch because he came very close to ripping off his pitot tube which would have resulted in an emergency flight back to the airfield. The Pitot tube is a primary input for the flight control computers. If you are hamfisting the stick and you let the probe come off the lip of the basket it can cause the basket to violently whip around and smack against the nose of the aircraft. This is never good and rarely seen.

 

That's typically the C130 scenario with the soft hose, now the big air force tankers like the KC135 that was a whole different game, you start messing around with that solid boom, there's a good chance that operator in the tail is going to retract the boom and wave buh bye as you are sent home in disgrace.:cry:

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZV3Ffm2qIQ

Former Marine KC-130 Loadmaster here:

Watched you jet and helo guys stab away at my basket for years and years. Unless the hose was bouncing around, most of the hornet guys were silky smooth. Only had one refueling mishap with a Hornet, and that was our fault (hydraulics on the refueling pod failed, hose stopped responsing, slack formed in the hose, sin wave up, sin wave down, and we are the proud owners of a surprised hornet driver's refueling probe). AV-8s were always pretty b-hole clenching to watch. Those poor guys have to look up and over their shoulder to line up the probe with the basket. The only time I ever called breakaway was when a Harrier pilot thought it would be a good idea to line up about 10 ft above and behind the basket and dive into it. Dragged the drogue down with his momentum, bent the hose at a right angle and ripped a hole in it. Don't even get me started on the 53Es...

Anyway, for me the most fun I've had in DCS is mastering air refueling. I just find it incredibly rewarding when I make contact and hold the plug for a full bag of gas. I'm really looking forward to trying it with the Hornet when it comes out. My question for you, neo, is have you tried tanking with the Mirage in DCS and if so, how does that compare to your experiences in real life?

Oh, and it's always nice to have an actual SME on the forums. Thanks for making yourself available :thumbup:

Here is an outstanding video made by an enthusiast about the carrier pattern.

 

Really great and thorough but with some much needed corrections. I highly recommend the video because it's a complete picture on carrier ops from the training perspective. Below are my corrections for the video.

_____________________________________________________

"I know this is very late feedback, good presentation but a couple of corrections for you. Never correct a high or low position with the stick, always with the power. You use the stick to correct alignment to centerline and maintaining the proper AOA.

I guess Autothrottle won't do that correctly so we get into the habit of using the stick. When do you come out of AT?

Was it common for you guys to fly dissimilar training with/against other aircraft like the F-16? AFAIK, most of our pilots train daily on the squadron missions and once a blue moon got to fly against dissimilar aircraft.

No it wasn't common unless you happened to be on detachment in Nevada where the air force bubbas were to the south and it was reasonable to arrange some training outside the normal red flag/top gun events.

Once in a blue moon on the east coast we got a chance to fly against AF crews from nearby AF bases but it wasn't routine.

Simply put it was too much of an admin hassle and of course there was increased risk of something going wrong in the flight due to different procedures that were practiced.

The services have enough in-house training mid-airs so there is no need to compound the issue.

Look like an AOA probe, we got those on the F-16. Anyway, thanks.

whoops I stand corrected, you are right that's the AOA probe, I kept saying pitot tube when I meant aoa probe which is more essential for flying on the boat. Both are primary inputs for the computers though.

Old age is getting to me.

LOL, old age is getting to many of us.

You know we are going to drive you crazy with questions so for what is worth, thanks. All those years in the USAF, and never got to much time to talk to the pilots, sadly I don't even remember the names of the ones assigned to my jets. Anyway.

Former Marine KC-130 Loadmaster here:

Watched you jet and helo guys stab away at my basket for years and years. Unless the hose was bouncing around, most of the hornet guys were silky smooth. Only had one refueling mishap with a Hornet, and that was our fault (hydraulics on the refueling pod failed, hose stopped responsing, slack formed in the hose, sin wave up, sin wave down, and we are the proud owners of a surprised hornet driver's refueling probe). AV-8s were always pretty b-hole clenching to watch. Those poor guys have to look up and over their shoulder to line up the probe with the basket. The only time I ever called breakaway was when a Harrier pilot thought it would be a good idea to line up about 10 ft above and behind the basket and dive into it. Dragged the drogue down with his momentum, bent the hose at a right angle and ripped a hole in it. Don't even get me started on the 53Es...

 

Anyway, for me the most fun I've had in DCS is mastering air refueling. I just find it incredibly rewarding when I make contact and hold the plug for a full bag of gas. I'm really looking forward to trying it with the Hornet when it comes out. My question for you, neo, is have you tried tanking with the Mirage in DCS and if so, how does that compare to your experiences in real life?

 

Oh, and it's always nice to have an actual SME on the forums. Thanks for making yourself available :thumbup:

Wow I never heard of an 18 losing it's refueling probe, that must have been talked about for weeks in the squadrons. The repair bill must have been close to a million I would imagine for the plane. I bet you have seen it all. I can only imagine the things you have seen.:doh:

I haven't tried refuelling in DCS yet. I am not sure which jets in my inventory can do it, I don't have the mirage, might have to pick that up. I go back and fourth among various sims I have so I have barely touched what DCS can do. I just love zooming, bouncing and landing at Nellis right now oh and doing the startups and shutdowns. Always fun seeing how the different planes do this. Looking forward to playing with the helo modules I picked up on sale as well.

Eventually I will dig deeper with the modules.

Oh one more thing, the KC130 was an interesting experience because unlike the AF tankers you guys flew slower and you had the prop wash factor that could wreak havoc on flying in close. This is why you would see all kinds of crazy movement from planes, and the reason why the hornet was silky smooth compared to others was the fly by wire computers doing their job and keeping that propwash from wreaking havoc.

I guess Autothrottle won't do that correctly so we get into the habit of using the stick. When do you come out of AT?

Ah yes autothrottle, it's been so long I barely remember the termiinology but there were basically three options for the pilot coming back to the ship.

Full auto, partial auto and manual.

In full auto you were hands off and let the plane fly all the way to the deck. This almost killed my CO and from then on no one was allowed to use full auto for the rest of the cruise.

I assume the sytem has been dramatically updated with software updates and the new super-hornets but back in my day....etc.

In partial-auto you controlled the stick and the plane has the throttle, I, like most pilots never liked this mode because it was counter to what we were taught because you were using the stick to influence the glideslope since the computers were not trying maintain glideslope just maintaining on speed. This was a bad crutch to lean on because over time it degraded your skills in flying the ball.

This is why I stayed away from this mode like the plague. The only ones that like this mode, typically were poor ball flyers, surprise surprise. This is also why you had to clearly call out this mode to the LSO on approach so that he knew you would be using the stick for glideslope input which changes the LSOs sight picture. Typically you were expected to go manual inside the quarter mile to get you back to the basics of flying the ball.

BTW the auto modes were used almost exclusively at night when you were flying the straight-in approach starting at 10 miles.

One more note about on-speed (i.e. solid yellow doughnut on the AOA indicator), not only is it the ideal orientation for plane's hook to catch the wires but it's also the optimal lift for the wings of the a/c. IMPORTANT: By having optimal lift you maximize the effectiveness of the throttle for maintaining glideslope.:book:

This is why it's so dangerous to use both stick and throttle to maintain glideslope because once you push or pull the stick to influence the nose (for climb/descent) you instantly come off maximum lift and thereby reduce the effectiveness of the throttles. This now has a compounding effect because the pilot has now fooled himself into using even more or even less power then he should be thereby exacerbating the situation greatly.

This is why the experienced LSO will down you in a heartbeat if they see this behavior. :cry:

Really interesting thread to read...please continue sharing..

<S>

Weekend news Hornet video!

Weekend news Hornet video!

Showing features!

Must see!

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=151478&page=10

Really interesting thread to read...please continue sharing..

 

<S>

Normally some of the details I've been sharing especially about ball flying would not interest the general fan of aviation or simply go over their heads but I know for most of you hard core sim fans this all makes sense.

I remember my light bulb coming on fairly quickly in flight school thanks to my extensive time in flight sims.

Ironically most real world mil pilots don't care for flight sims after they have done the real thing because the sims are simply no match to the real thing but I still reveled in it and went to the F18 simulator whenever I could and practiced everything from landings to fighting the AI. Even though it was crude especially by today's standards it will still a fun learning experience because you could experiment with what ifs and etc that you couldn't do in the real plane.

I knew my fellow pilots were not into sims because it was always a ghost town when the scheduled mandatory training events were not happening at the sim building.

I really really wish the author of that LSO program got together with ED and became a 3rd party developer. I am so impressed with what I saw with the manual, clearly he has inside knowledge and brings a lot of authenticity to the flight sim community.

Yep, I begged both sides to do so 2 years ago, would be a very smart play, why reinvent the wheel...

Brilliant stuff. This really is fascinating. Enjoying every word.

Many thanks

Thanks for all the info. Great to hear from a F-18 pilot.

Weekend news Hornet video!

 

Showing features!

 

Must see!

That is now an old video I'm afraid...

Yep, I begged both sides to do so 2 years ago, would be a very smart play, why reinvent the wheel...

Let's just hope they talked behind the scenes and something good came out of it.

Question for you..if it's not already been addressed..

What was your take on the F-14A vs the B/D in relation to BFM/ACM against them in the Hornet?

I believe the F-14A's optimum corner velocity was around 350 knots..which isn't that far off from the Hornet. Of course the Alpha cat couldn't regain energy as well since the TF30's were touchy to aggressive throttle movement and, as you said, slower to spool up.

Normally some of the details I've been sharing especially about ball flying would not interest the general fan of aviation or simply go over their heads but I know for most of you hard core sim fans this all makes sense.

 

I remember my light bulb coming on fairly quickly in flight school thanks to my extensive time in flight sims.

 

Ironically most real world mil pilots don't care for flight sims after they have done the real thing because the sims are simply no match to the real thing but I still reveled in it and went to the F18 simulator whenever I could and practiced everything from landings to fighting the AI. Even though it was crude especially by today's standards it will still a fun learning experience because you could experiment with what ifs and etc that you couldn't do in the real plane.

 

I knew my fellow pilots were not into sims because it was always a ghost town when the scheduled mandatory training events were not happening at the sim building.

Welcome Neofightr it's really encouraging to have people with this kind of experience enjoying DCS and it's modules and becoming an active part of the DCS community. It will benefit us all.

What was your take on the F-14A vs the B/D in relation to BFM/ACM against them in the Hornet?

I know you didnt ask me but I cant resist: as the Turkey is an interceptor, you ought not to BFM with it unless you Foxtrotted up and got cornered...shoot 'em in the back from BVR...