Any news on the INS development and PI mode?

I have not used the m2000 for a while as I have been waiting for it to be developed further (despite it being a great module).

Anyway I was wondering whether there had been any further development to the INS like the ability to manually input waypoints or input a coordinate to be used with PI bombing mode?

Jacks

It's being worked on as we speek

what's PI mode ?

IP in English :)

Point Initial/ Initial Point.

The target's coordinates are given in azimuth/ distance relatively to this point.

As far as I am aware, it using the lat and long in the ins to set the aiming point for the bomb instead of you having to manually place the pipper over the target and pressing lock. I don't know if then uses the height and location data from the INS or uses radar or rad alt to calculate distance to target and altitude.

It will be very useful for lasing guided bombing and will mean that you don't have to lower the nose to set the aiming point and so the whole attack can be conducted at a constant altitude. It also means the human jtac can give you the grid of the target and so you won't need to be visual with a target to attack it.

I may be wrong though..........

As far as I am aware, it using the lat and long in the ins to set the aiming point for the bomb instead of you having to manually place the pipper over the target and pressing lock. I don't know if then uses the height and location data from the INS or uses radar or rad alt to calculate distance to target and altitude.

 

It will be very useful for lasing guided bombing and will mean that you don't have to lower the nose to set the aiming point and so the whole attack can be conducted at a constant altitude. It also means the human jtac can give you the grid of the target and so you won't need to be visual with a target to attack it.

 

I may be wrong though..........

Yes you're wrong.

INS is just an help to find the target. But it's not accurate enough to attack target.

Target's coordinates are DD/MN'SS

1' = 1852m

1s = 1852/60 = 30,86m

So, even with perfect INS without drifting you can have up to 30m error in target's position.

This is why you have to visually find the target and range it, or at least range the IP point to update NAV system before performing toss bombing.

And INS being an help you can attack targets off opportunity without entering their coordinates in INS.

You can't (or shouldn't) be able to perform blind high altitude level release on target's coordinates with M-2000C.

This is first an all weather interceptor with secondary attack capabilities. It's not Mirage 2000N/D dedicated strike aircrafts

You can't (or shouldn't) be able to perform blind high altitude level release on target's coordinates with M-2000C.

I can't agree with that. +/- 30m accuracy is enough for Paveways, dropped from altitudes 30k+++. The seeker will catch the laser spot.

It's not enough for CCRP dumb bombing though.

I can't agree with that. +/- 30m accuracy is enough for Paveways, dropped from altitudes 30k+++. The seeker will catch the laser spot.

 

It's not enough for CCIP dumb bombing though.

Yes, but when the system was designed GBU-12 wasn't in inventory, it's a late addition and you're dropping it like a Mk-82...

right, but what difference does it make ?

what really matters is 2000C's capability of performing modern CAS missions with guided munitions, although using external designation

right, but what difference does it make ?

 

what really matters is 2000C's capability of performing modern CAS missions with guided munitions, although using external designation

Difference being, without GBU in mind, conceptors of INS system didn't include a way to lock and guide a bomb release from INS coordinates. Unless I completely misunderstood Jojo :)

When I said about attacking a target from altitude without visibility, I meant using GBUs with a human jtac lasing the target. Using the INS to load the aiming point will make using GBUs so much easier. Currently locating a target at high altitude and set locking nearby is difficult and results in a loss of altitude which depending on the Sam threat can be risky.

Plus +/- 30m is close enough for a launch of multiple unguided bombs with a separation set. So I guess I was right in my description!

Jacks

conceptors of INS system didn't include a way to lock and guide a bomb release from INS coordinates

ok, they didn't. so what ?

INS still helps with things, Jacks was talking about

I was under the impression, that it's not possible to designate a INS-location as a target point for CCRP in the M2000. Not like with the A-10C, where this is possible. So even with INS you will still have to dive to designate the CCRP target. That's what I've been told.

I was under the impression, that it's not possible to designate a INS-location as a target point for CCRP in the M2000. Not like with the A-10C, where this is possible. So even with INS you will still have to dive to designate the CCRP target. That's what I've been told.

So if that is the case how does PI mode work for CCRP and CCIP as it is an option on the PCA. I had always assumed that it uses the ins to place the lock point and then uses the opinion data and altitude data from the INS to calculate release point or impact point. I recognise that this is likely to be the least accurate form of bombing but it is very useful to help you find a location designated by another play (either a JTAC or a gazelle/KA-50 pilot) or for you to lock the targeting system close enough to the target so you can release a GBU-12 using this mode and it will pick up the beam without the need to dive and relocate the target by placing the pipper over it.

Well, bombing on a waypoint differs a lot from bombing in CCRP mode, I agree

Think some folk were thinking CCRP when the actual ask was for GBU's with buddy lase. It wasn't that clear in the OP, so its fair people didnt find complete agreement. Though, i'd still not like to be 30m away from a Mk84 bomb blast...

From an older thread: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2675413&postcount=61

So if that is the case how does PI mode work for CCRP and CCIP as it is an option on the PCA.

From my understanding, it's just an alternative means of getting the target altitude, like RS (radar altimeter - assume target is at the same altitude as the terrain directly under the jet) or TAS (actually measure the slant range between the jet and the target and derive altitude from that).

PI just uses the altitude of your current waypoint as the 'terrain elevation' for its ballistic calculations, rather than actually measuring anything. Since in many cases you'll have a waypoint at or near your target position, this is information already entered into the system, and PI just provides a means of accessing it. This should be pretty accurate, assuming that both the elevation in the waypoint and your altimeter are correct.

Speculating here, but I don't think the Mirage 2000C's targeting computer utilises its position (as in lat/long, actual place in the world) in any way, nor that of the target. The INS notion of the aircraft's position is likely to be too innacurate for that to be reliable so it's just not used at all. Target designation in CCRP mode sets a position relative to the aircraft, so the absolute positioning error is irrelevant - the only errors that affect the solution are those that accumulate between designation and weapon release, which should be measured in tens of seconds, if that.

For CCIP, the ballistics computer is continously tracing the weapon trajectory to whatever its notion of "ground level" is. For PI mode, it's just a flat plane at the waypoint elevation. For RS/TAS it would be a constantly changing plane; but I wouldn't be surprised if the pipper position was 'smoothed' to make it more usable.

Plus +/- 30m is close enough for a launch of multiple unguided bombs with a separation set.

I thought jojo made it pretty clear that ±30m was the expected error resulting purely from data entry, as an indication that the system was not designed with precise positioning in mind.

The number of people repeating now repeating "30 metres" as if it's the expected error margin in a dumb bomb release from 30,000 feet is amazing (even if it's only 2 or 3... it's still amazing). And yes, Paveways are dumb bombs until (and unless) they detect the laser spot.

Bombing accuracy will be greatly increased with the further development of the release queue to be automated. So the pilot can just hold down the button and the computer would release the ordinance.

how do bombs guide on a ground based TAC laser?

how do bombs guide on a ground based TAC laser?

The same way they guide on a air-based laser? :)

In a nutshell:

The bomb has a seeker/laser receiver on its nose which is able to detect the laser energy reflected from a target*. It has some electronics which actuate control surfaces to alter the bomb's trajectory in order to put the reflected signal in the centre of its 'vision' and keep it there. Which results in the bomb hitting whatever the laser is being reflected from.

The pilot is responsible for releasing the bomb such that its trajectory will allow the seeker to pick up the reflected laser energy, and therefore begin guiding. Until it does so, it's simply a normal dumb bomb that flies a normal dumb bomb ballistic trajectory.

If the launch platform can detect laser emissions itself, then it can provide some kind of assistance to the pilot. e.g. the A-10A's Pave Penny pod could provide an indicator on the HUD as to where it was detecting laser energy, so the pilot could bomb that spot. More sophisticated targeting pods can enter a laser scan/search mode, stopping when they pick up a signal and pointing themselves (and the pilot) right at it. This also helps to ensure whoever is responsible for lasing the target actually is doing so.

If the launch platform has no laser receiver capacity (like the M-2000C), the pilot just performs a regular delivery to place the bomb on (or close to) the target, and hopes whoever is responsible for providing the terminal laser guidance is doing so. The target position is communicated by normal means, e.g. over the radio, pre-briefed, etc.

* - it can also detect laser energy which isn't reflected, so RL procedure is to make sure the attacking aircraft is behind the thing doing the lasing, so it only sees the reflected energy, not the actual emitter itself.

I'll try to be more clear.

First, I did a slight mistake, 30m would be the distance between 2 coordinates in DDMMSS format.

So past 15m you would change the coordinate.

But like I said it's for a perfect system which don't drift.

It's 1980' technology, so we can assume the drift to be near 1Nm/h, which is already damn good for pure INS system. (no embedded GPS)

If you want to update your NAV system, you must overfly a waypoint, or designate it through the HUD, and you do that when you use Initial Point attack procedure: you designate the IP, which update the system in latitude, longitude and altitude.

So for a short period of time, the system is assessed as accurate enough for a toss bombing where you don't actually see the target (general purpose bomb). For high drag bomb it's just the same delivery as usual. But it allows to update the target's position, and you will look for the target near the + in the HUD.

For general purpose bomb AND GBU-12 you have to designate the target (or IP, maybe you can toss a GBU-12, but it would be hazardous to expect it to catch the laser spot at the end of the loft trajectory) to allow the system to build an accurate aircraft to target 3D vector, despite INS position drift.

Currently you press the triggers and the bomb goes whatever you're doing.

But in real you need a firing solution, to get that firing solution you need to designate either the target or the IP.

You can't have a firing solution directly on INS waypoint, and you can't designate with radar in map mode (not accurate enough either).

So I tried to understand the attack modes described in the available Mirage 2000C RDM manual (in French) found on the web, and I try to explain it with some educated guess and research on technology available in the plane.

And upgrade from RDM to RDI were on radar, ECM and HOTAS. Not so much on INS...

High altitude level release is not part of available attack options of the plane. It's not Mirage 2000D.

" but it would be hazardous to expect it to catch the laser spot at the end of the loft trajectory" .... why so ? it was a standard RAAF method to Toss GBU12's from steam driven Mirage IIIO's just using a manual TOSS computation then stopwatch timing from the IP pull pickle .... Designator was turned on at Peak apogee .... didnt loose any GBU12's

here we are doing it GBU12 TOSS starts around 8:00 min in

[ame]

This was all filmed with handheld Betamax behomth cameras :)

Yep...will see how it works in DCS !

Nice video, "exotic" weapon load, it would just deserve better music :D