Cass

It lines up. The tracer round they have modelled is the M20, which had a different composition and was a more effective round than the M8 API.

Thank you @NineLine! I know this isn't your call and you take the brunt of our frustrations. Massively appreciate your continued push on this.

The monthly nudge. Has there been any more internal traction on including this in a upcoming update?

Thanks for the update @NineLine. Really appreciate you continuing to push on this. DCS WWII would have a lot of happy customers once this finally gets implemented

Thanks @NineLine Sorry for pestering it's just the fact this is ready to go and has been outstanding for over 12 months now makes it that extra bit frustrating. Plus the fact it would have such an impact on some of DCS WW2s most popular aircraft.

@NineLine Can you give them another nudge? Been quite a few updates that have come through now. A lot of people are very keen to see this implementated and it's ready to go.

Thanks @NineLine Thats fair. There are some tricky bugs for them to fix. I'd really stress to them that this is such a quick little win. The text is already there to input into the lua and we've all been testing these belts for quite some time.

@NineLine Completely understand not wanting to have to do this twice but we are fast approaching a year since this update was ready to go. Both USAAF we have in DCS currently (and the USN one on the way) would have used the belts you have suggested here: All 3 are 44/45 aircraft and would not have been equipped with anything other than API or APIT rounds we have modelled already, unless in very special circumstances. So it doesn't seem necessary to wait on any additional rounds. You've got an easy home run that's been ready for a while and it would massively improve the historical accuracy of 2 of your modules. I'd really really recommend pushing for the suggested belts to go out in the next update.

No worries, thanks for pushing this forward @NineLine. Let us know if there is anything you need that we can help with.

Thanks for the update @NineLine Researching, building and testing 2 new rounds is a good chunk of work so understand the delay on that. While that's happening, is it possible to introduce the 2 44 (APIT44 & API44) belts that you put together in the next update? The P47 and P51 models we have in the sim are both 44/45 planes so would have no doubt flown with these almost exclusively in their time setting (plus the A-G belt we have currently but API was still mainly used for ground attack) and in the settings we have in the SP Campaigns/MP. Completely understand wanting to wait for the new rounds and to do it in one go but it's quite a task putting those rounds together. With everything else the team has on their plate, we could be waiting quite a while. With the work you've put together below and the fact we've got everything we need currently with the M8 & M20 already in the sim, it would be a pretty significant QoL update for the US planes that's 100% ready to go.

+ 1

Edit: realised this sounds super nit picky. Just wanted to check and make sure on the D9 and the A8.

Wow ok, something has definitely been updated! I can't repeat anything from those videos. It's a massive improvement on what was happening previously. Pretty much there but it does still seem as though the D9 and the A8 armour are able to stop a round or 2. (confirmed this on the ground with the WW2 halftrack shooting at the armour plates- K4 is 1 hit and the A8 and D9 take 2/3. I know it's not ideal but just used it to verify). I only say that as you might only get 1 shot that is on the pilot and if it's blocked that's obviously significant. The AP round can absolutely sail through the A8 or D9 backplate no problem. The below are the penetration values against rolled homogeneous steel for a basic AP round (M8 and M20 should be better than this). The back plates are dural so they nowhere near as effective at stopping rounds. Dural equivalency: I've attached another few tracks I've run today . The pilots get killed, but appears as though there are a few shots that's should be getting to the pilot and aren't. Would be good to see if that's the case, especially in the D9 & A8 track. DCSDMA8D9.zip

Hi @NineLine, Thank you so much for taking the time to look at these. I originally left some of the tracks where the pilots were killed as I was wondering why it was inconsistent. Was something updated? I now run the tracks where the pilot didn't die (as per the video) and they are often getting killed now.

Hi @NineLine Hope you're good. Very much in need some help in understanding what's happening here as I'm hitting a bit of wall with my testing. I can obviously see that something not quite right but am unsure which part of the model is falling down. All tracks provided in the zip folder attached - let me know if there are any issues. General Post: I've put off posting this for a while in the hopes of running more tests and working out what was wrong, but each test left more questions rather than fewer so thought it best just to post what I have so far in the hopes that a solution can be found. Having noticed the lack of pilot injuries or deaths, especially with the .50 Cal, I decided to do some testing and have found some pretty odd behaviour. I'm not sure what exactly is happening and whether there are some penetration issue with the rounds itself, the pilot's DM isn't correct, or there is something wrong with the armour values of the cockpit glass and surrounding elements. I tested both German and USAAF planes and both showed the same behaviour. I haven't tested the Hispano AP round although I would assume it has a similar issue based off of the tests run. What's more confusing is there seems to be some inconsistency as well in the tests. In one situation you would have a pilot dying very quickly, in others they simply wouldn't. All tests were run in SP as I don't have the luxury of my own server and can't port forward in my location. We have run some MP tests which did match what you see here, but they weren't controlled or numerous enough to include. For clarity in case anyone's unsure, on every aircraft there is absolutely nothing that would stop even a 50 ball round at combat ranges. It can go through 13mm of RHA at 1000m and none of these planes are fitted with RHA, it's mostly duralumin which is far less effective. The AP round should be sailing straight through the aircraft skin and the armour. The 20mm Hispano AP round is no slouch either so there should be nothing stopping that as well. Yak_Panther made an excellent post on the 50 Cal AP round for the IL2 Devs that runs through the penetration capabilities with sources (https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/72656-50-cal-ap-velocity-and-penetration/). This very much isn't a 50 Cal issue either as both German and British AP or even HE rounds aren't disabling the pilot when they should be. DM x-rays: D9 A8 K4 Testing Methods: Live Tests: These were conducted in SP with a Mustang running the AIr to Ground Belt (4xAP 1xAPIT). Time was slowed down to allow for easier aiming with the idea of landing one bank of guns into the back of the cockpit. I tried to attack slightly from above to completely avoid the fuel tanks. You can see that in almost all scenarios there are numerous rounds hitting directly behind the pilot at an angle where they should be going through and the pilot survives. I fast forwarded time on the tracks and in the video to show the pilot is fine. Ground Tests: AI seem to have a 30s invulnerability window when starting from the ramp so I left some time to avoid this. Used numerous weapon platforms from different eras to see if it was a round issue or a DM/Armour issue. The P51 doesn't have a pilot death animation so was difficult to test in this scenario although the tests conducted produces the same results. Some pretty strange results. Direct pilot shots aren't instant kills even without the armour so this points to either a Pilot DM issue, or some strange armour values for the canopy itself. This would have to be the case even when the canopy is open as the P47 pilot took direct hits (strikes appeared to be slightly infront of the pilot but I'm unsure if that's just the effect registering or the round not going through something). What further confuses this is that in the A8 the rounds are appearing to go through to the engine and cause an oil leak but the pilot appears fine. Scrappy video I put together showing what's happening in the tracks. Chapters in the description: DCS_DMTest_Oct21.zip

Hi @NineLine Sorry to chase again but I was wondering if these changes have been approved and whether there is a timeline on their implementation? More than happy to dig into some more evidence if there are any question marks. It's so great having the tracerless belts now working in multiplayer but with the belt having 2 Ball rounds, it noticeably loses a lot of it's effectiveness.

It's a great high level source but the only mention of a belt composition is in the Air to Ground Section. It mentions one of the belts @NineLinehas created: @Marduk879I've read that source quite a few times (and posted it on the IL2 forums about 30) and have managed to miss the point about the M8 not being recommend. Everything else that I've read and heard pertains to the AP,AP,I,I,T falling out of favour by 1944 and a full API, with an additional APIT if the squadron wanted to use tracers. It appears to have been Fighter Group dependant earlier on. If you read the encounter reports of the P47 (http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47-encounter-reports.html) you can see that by mid 43, the 4th FG were using API ammunition, whether as the 56th FG are still using AP&I. Shift to 1944 and the 56th are using API&T or pure API, so the AP&I belt clearly was replaced and API was used in the timeframe relevant to Normandy. Interestingly Gabreskis report from 30 Jan, it appears as though he had the 6 inboard guns firing API or APIT (difficult to make out) and his two outboards firing pure incendiary so there was clearly a lot of freedom for the big boys (he switched back to pure API for his February kills). The books a great overall source, but the 100s of AARs we have across an almost 2 year period are far more detailed and paint a different picture about API.

These look spot on @NineLine. Super easy to understand. Great work!

Hi, I'm really enjoying the Anton at the moment. Part of the joy of flying in VR is having the ability to turn on the pilot body in cockpit. Despite trying with the default key and even changing it to another, no pilot seems to appear. Has the Anton still not got a pilot model? Thanks

Hi, Not sure where to put this as it's an issue for the P51 and the P47. Please feel free to move or let me know where to post. I found what is a super quick fix that should finally put the nail in the ".50s aren't effective enough" coffin. The belt compositions we currently have as options don't appear to be correct for the US aircraft. By the time of the P51s introduction at the end of 1943, the USAAF had switched to full API and Incendiary load-outs. According to the lua, the Combat Mix belt is Ball, AP, AP, API, APIT. This belt had been phased out in 1943 in favour of an API and Incendiary mixture. Ball had been phased out during 1942 so certainly shouldn't be used in any of the belts other than a training belt maybe. Source: http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=2210 https://history.army.mil/html/books/010/10-10/CMH_Pub_10-10.pdf (Gabreski's silver tip API only loudout) As we don't have a pure incendiary round modeled a more correct standard belt for the P51 and P47 modeled in game would be API, API, API, API, APIT With the CS No Tracers belt being a pure API loud-out - API, API, API, API, API There also appears to be a slight error in the Left wing outboard Air to Ground belt as it contains 1 round of ball instead of AP (all other guns are AP and APIT). Otherwise this is a spot on AG belt. I took the liberty of modifying the lua to the correct values. Not sure whether you would want to create new belts, or update the current ones. I understand there are still plenty of complaints about the effectiveness of the .50 equipped planes and I believe the incorrect belts probably play a large part of this. Nineline is obviously dedicating a decent chunk of time to show what is happening under the hood in the new damage model (which has been awesome) to try and quell some of this but having tested it, these historically correct belts seem to be absolutely spot on. Some testing with a full API belt (please don't be mean about my gunnery):