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-   -   UH1H Gunship Castrated! (https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=254520)

Gizzy 11-05-2019 06:14 AM

UH1H Gunship Castrated!
 
Update 31-10-19


"DCS World
  • Bullets of M134 minigun will be less powerful."
Very significantly reduced the effectiveness of the UH1H in gunship mode. Sure at very close quarters you can have some success but have never known the mini guns to be so useless since the module was released.

Never fired the mini gun but certainly .762 GPMG in light and heavy modes - thankfully they were not 'tuned' by ED :( Maybe with with dual cockpit consider bayonet mounts:music_whistling:

Shadow KT 11-05-2019 08:21 AM

I mean.... the mini guns were almost killing tanks.... I loved them too, but......

BIGNEWY 11-05-2019 09:03 AM

Yes they were slightly overpowered, as mentioned above even killing tanks.

Kappi 11-05-2019 10:38 AM

You know there's something wrong when the Huey killed more tanks than the Kamov, and that by just flying around with no targeting involved.

Gizzy 11-05-2019 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIGNEWY (Post 4098379)
Yes they were slightly overpowered, as mentioned above even killing tanks.

If anything that is the result of stupid ai programmed accuracy with door gunners and whatever damage model the target has been dealt.

No dispute on that point not that I ever engaged tanks with a Huey BUT the current setting appears to be an excessive over reaction - which is very noticeable if you have ever used .762 in sustained fire role...

The mini gun with a top rate of 6000rpm however I believe set at 3-4000 rounds per minute - is totally destructive against soft skinned vehicles... not like the current offering.

Please, refer it to be reviewed by SMEs if possible..


On a similar vein the HE rockets have always been terribly ineffective despite a fantastic graphic of the explosion. Put 50 troops 1 metre apart and fire 1 rocket into the middle. 1 maybe 2 may be killed. DCS presumably ignores fragmentation and only counts direct hits thinking that all of the Caucasus terrain is made up of the softest and deepest Irish bog that contains all blast and explosive damage :)

Wishing all health, love, wealth, happiness and just everything your heart desires but especially DCS simulating accurately everything for all and still be as cheap as it is now ... :thumbup:

Catweedle 11-05-2019 12:32 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Hey Gizzy/ED,

I think something fishy is going on after the armor and M134 adjustments in the latest patch/-es: depending on angle and/or orientation of some APC types (e.g. AAV-7) , the M134 does no damage at all. However, some APC -- e.g. the BMP-3 -- are completely bulletproof against the minigun, no matter what angle it's hit at. I've done a quick test on that, and I think the current state is not a feature but a bug:



As you can see, only if the AAV7 is positioned/facing perpendicular to the minigun, it takes damage. I've attached the .miz and .trk for this video.

BIGNEWY 11-05-2019 12:39 PM

Thanks Catweedle I will take a look

Fri13 11-05-2019 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gizzy (Post 4098510)
The mini gun with a top rate of 6000rpm however I believe set at 3-4000 rounds per minute - is totally destructive against soft skinned vehicles... not like the current offering.

The Rounds Per Minute != Damage Level

A 7.62mm is destructive on armored targets like many trucks (many trucks has armored cockpits), but it ain't deadly because it is 2400 RPM but because it is 7.62 and multiple hits on target = Damage Amount.

In DCS the vehicles are still health bar units, meaning their health is from 100% to 0% when they explode, with couple effects between at various levels.

So why the high RPM weapons are more effective is that you have one bullet to do X % of damage, so if you put on target (anywhere) a X amount of bullets faster than with lower RPM weapon, you will destroy that target faster.

But that ain't the case with the real vehicle. You can put a million rounds through a truck tarp cover behind the rear compartment, when there is nothing behind it, you don't do any damage. You can shoot million bullets through a tire, it will not blow up the vehicle.

You can put single bullet to engine coolant unit, and it will cause trouble later. You can put one bullet to each tires and you will immobilize the vehicle, you don't need million for that.
You can put one bullet to head of the driver, and the vehicle will keep going until hitting something and you don't need million bullets on that.

What is the destructive in minigun is its increased capability to hit something with that single bullet when shooting at the target. And putting more random rounds on the target, is increasing the probability to hit something important.

And that will not work until ED is going to release the damage modeling to ground vehicles where there is dozens of different areas that you can hit with various effects.

But when it comes to armored vehicles that are armored against a 5.45-7.62x39, then you are not going to cause such effect as penetrate the armor because you put 20 rounds on the same square meter area instead one.

Yes, eventually you could/would wear down the armor capability withstand the impacts, but it is far longer process than you would do by flying helicopter and randomly putting rounds on a such vehicle armor part.

Yes, the M134 minigun is higher caliber, 7.62x51, it will have more effect than 7.62x39 at closer ranges, but its main effect is really the range benefit for penetration. But it ain't more magical caliber than example squad PK machine gun is with its 7.62x54R caliber, that is as well stopped by the APC's and IFV's armors at slightly longer ranges.

A minigun is excellent weapon when you have a target behind a defense position like a building, wall or such. As you can tear up those constructions with the minigun. But it ain't designed to be used against a armored personal carriers to destroy them as you would with a cannon. It is for the usual targets, infantry, their unarmored transport vehicles, the constructed defense points etc. In other words, soft targets.


A good sample how M134 works.



The problem again is not the modules, now when the M134 is fixed for the penetration capability. The problem is that we do not (yet) have a proper targets. Meaning that we do not have infantry as we should, we don't have the defensive positions as we should, no technicals (the open truck with a MMG/HMG mounted on the rear) or anything like a infantry in buildings etc.

This is just limiting that the UH-1H is put way too often against a targets that it would never be flying around.

I just tested it against a Ural-375, LT-MB and BMP-1, and it can still destroy truck quickly, MB-LT took slightly longer, but it has just like 3-5mm armor around it, so nothing really to stop at close range firing. And BMP-1 took many passes and close range engagement to get it wearing down, mainly from the rear.

But it is not odd thing considering that BMP-1 was designed to withstand the 7.62 armor piercing calibers at around 50-100 meter ranges from front hemisphere (armors are about 15-20mm all around), so you really need to get to its rear to start doing some damage, and that should be for the transport compartment, as the engine is in the front so you can't kill it, or the driver, so it would likely stay always in the move, but you could kill carried squad inside it.

But with a modern armor penetration rounds, you likely put nice holes on that. But that shouldn't be in the DCS as it should be about Vietnam era cartridges.

BIGNEWY 11-05-2019 12:57 PM

Hi I have spoken to the team,

7.62mm had double the shell energy it should have had,

In DCS unless the shell penetrates it does no damage to the unit.

Some angled armour is more difficult / impossible to penetrate with 7.62mm

schroedi 11-05-2019 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catweedle (Post 4098584)
Hey Gizzy/ED,

some APC -- e.g. the BMP-3 -- are completely bulletproof against the minigun, no matter what angle it's hit at.

Which is as it should be.


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