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-   -   The Battle of the Stretch Goal (https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=114788)

SlipBall 09-29-2013 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hegykc (Post 1889807)
No promises would be broken to people that gave money. They get their 3 planes for "free", of for their pledge.

The only promise broken would be to anyone that hasn't pledged.

Yes, once someone make a pledge, it is now a legal contract. llya would not be able to change that, and I'm sure he would'nt even think of such a thing

Hans-Joachim Marseille 09-29-2013 09:27 PM

Can you add something in the game that can only be had by having pledged?
I'm sure you're aware that the "other sim" does something special in multi-player for their Premium backers, among other backer awards ...

Charly_Owl 09-29-2013 09:28 PM

1) About killer video.
It's a great idea. There might already be some available (wink, wink). You can use mine if you want. If you can come up with something better on your own, please share! :)

2) About new rewards
I think it's too late for that... The possible gain would be too marginal at this point.

3) About Taking Paypal
YES! The project can still be funded by continuous support just like Star Citizen did. But, for this endeavour to succeed, you need

a) a solid platform, website or forum structure to present the project from. Each section needs to be properly identified so anyone can know where to find the information is (i.e. Pledge, Stretch Goals, the Team, the Aircrafts) Kickstarter platform is currently inappropriate as you need to cross-check everything two or three times to know what you're buying. There was positive feedback on the Non-Official brochure... you can look it up.

b) a detailed, CLEAR, and noob-proof pledge system. Do not use the "Everything at 50$ level + bla bla bla". Make a table (once again, Non-Official brochure tables are quite clear) or a graph or something that's concise and to-the-point. Once this is done, submit a draft to us (or the most vocal people in the comment section) and we'll be glad to dissect everything and point out what makes sense, what does not and what is ambiguous. So many questions remain unanswered at this point, and I think the paypal page with a brand new and clear presentation could solve a lot of issues people have and clear the confusion. The point is: make people proofread your stuff before you post it.

c) A dedicated person to act as a community manager. Star Citizen had Wingman's Hangar and we always had little updates. Constant interaction with the community and updates about what's going on are key to successful funding. I understand your resources are limited, but if you're to see this project hit greater stretch goals, you need to think about other people than the diehard fans that we are.

d) If you want to go that route (and IMHO it's a no-brainer: it IS the way to go if you want to expand your playerbase), make sure that people have to invest a certain minimum amount to get in the game. IMHO, I think that DCS WWII should have 1 free aircraft for the base module (like a Tiger Moth: it's the perfect trainer aircraft, it's fun to fly and it gives a very good overview of what this game is capable of) and people have to pay, I dunno, maybe 15 bucks for each additional plane they want to buy. So, 45 bucks for Spittie, 109, and P-47. Tiger Moth or another trainer aircraft could be free. It's totally reasonable. The goal of this kickstarter is to give some advantages to those who pledged early and gave this project a shot before everyone else ( a bit like the Lifetime Insurances on Star Citizen for early backers). The other players will certainly not mind paying such a small amount for 3 amazing aircrafts in a WWII universe. People spend 70 bucks for a PS3 game they'll be playing for 8 hours. IMHO, 45 bucks for hundreds of hours of fun is a bargain.

4) About changes to project features
Your project features are what I have in mind. But the base aircraft must NOT be one of the cool aircrafts. I think you need a trainer aircraft, or an aircraft lots of people know about but don't necessarily think as "ooooh that airplane is so cool!". The Su-25 for DCS World is the perfect example. I've never flown it. Probably never will. But lots of my friends said: "Man... that Su-25 is really detailed. I gave it a shot, hated it, but I know the A-10C is my kind of plane. I'll give the A-10 a shot." The base module is a glorified demo, nothing else.

5) About any other reason:
I've recently converted some of my friends to flight sims. The though process is pretty much the same for everyone. Here's an example of why people don't get into flight sims:

a) "This DCS game looks fun, I've seen that dude on youtube do some pretty slick stuff. Let's see how I can get into flight sims."

b) "Hmm... okay, I need a joystick. I never bought one. Darn, 70 bucks? That's kinda expensive just to play one game..."

c) "Oh, people seem to move their head when they're flying. How do they do that? Oh, they use TrackIR... There are also free options, but people say it doesn't always work. Well, let's see the TrackIR. 150 bucks? WHAT? That's insane! And they want 40 bucks for shipping? That's a pretty huge investment "just to play one game"..."

d) "Hmm, okay, I'm wondering now... How do I control the rudder? Ohh.... people use rudder pedals. How much? Another 150-200$? Are they insane? Just for ONE game? Really?"

e) "Hmm... okay... they have that big manual on how to fly this aircraft. It's a really thick book. Meh... I want to fly, not read 600 pages about how to operate a goddarn plane!"

What we need to consider here:
Flight sims need to become more accessible. Hardware is a major issue because it's expensive. There needs to be a "Getting into Flight Simulators for Dummies" video on youtube. I'm planning on doing one eventually for newcomers to flight simulators. I plan on giving "do's and don't's", "what to buy with a limited budget", "what information is relevant", a detailed step-by-step guide on "how to fly", and other useful tips. Basically, the idea is that in order to get into flight sims, you need to understand 3 things:

First: Know your aircraft. Know how it works. Know how it breaks. You cannot fly your aircraft if you don't know how to operate it properly. I also plan on doing step-by-step guides eventually.

Second: Learn to fly your aircraft. Know how to trim. Know how to manoeuver. Know how to stall, recover from a spin. Know its limits. You cannot fight in an aircraft if you keep fighting against it. You know you're ready to fight when you instinctively know what you need to do in order to make the aircraft go somewhere or do a precise manoeuvre.

Third: Learn to fight. There, the principles of energy fighting, spotting, formation flight, and flight manoeuvres are essential to grasp. You can easily learn by looking on youtube or just by flying with other people online. I've learned more about dogfighting in an hour on the ATAG server than a whole month of reading books about fighter aces.

The point is: most people give up because getting in flight sims is a long and laborious commitment. Those of have no interest in aviation have no real "incentive" to do the effort of learning. There is no universal "guide" for newcomers to flight sims. I plan on doing one, but it's gonna be a long and laborious project.

The solution to this issue is:

a) Quick n' Dirty guide to Flight Sims
b) Inspire people by showcasing superb dogfighting videos once game is released.
c) Show people an easy way to acquire the necessary hardware to fly (joystick, pedals, trackIR, etc.).

Boris 09-29-2013 09:28 PM

I think that the information about the kickstarter project has been too limited to the active flight simming community.

While there are still a few people within the community who can be called to the cause, all of the extra videos and information coming out is finding an audience among people who have already pledged.

You're basically preaching to the converted! This is why the kickstarter seems saturated. No amount of awesome videos or extra incentives is going to get you the dramatic jump in pledges we would all like to see.

There are probably also a great deal of people in the community who have seen or heard a mention of the project, but have brushed it aside with a wait and see approach. In all likelihood they probably aren't even seeking any more information on the project and aren't visiting the relevant forums.

My suggestion: Get more publicity! Take the project to the wider gaming community. Wake the nostalgic sentiments of gamers who have since moved on to other genres.

Use your big name to send official press releases to the major gaming sites and offer exclusive interviews about the project. Coverage in the main stream gaming media will also give the project credibility by association. Maybe also make it clear how this model, working without a publisher, will ensure that will be much better than the perceived CoD debacle. Keep the language super positive and optimistic and choose your words to instil trust.

Get the project seen by millions... Make sure the news of the final days of the kickstarter is seen on the news feeds of phones and tablets!

You need to raise the exposure dramatically and ensure a high conversion rate by great quality content (of the news posts) to motivate people to give their full support!

Much more exposure coupled with great quality, concise, confident and enticing content is the KEY to making this work.

cichlidfan 09-29-2013 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pizzicato (Post 1889804)
I tend to agree.

As it stands I see several obstacles, most of which are pretty much insurmountable at this stage:

...

4. The frequent changes of focus (first you were going for a brand new audience, then you shifted to the hardcore), the increasingly complex/confusing pledge rewards, the indecisiveness over stretch goals, the rather amateurish videos and the general lack of communication with the community make the whole endeavour seem rather unprofessional and poorly thought out.

I don't mean any of this to sound nasty or personal (I really, really don't), but it's very pertinent to the issue at hand. Whatever the rights and wrongs of it, there are concerns around your ability to deliver what you promise and the execution of the Kickstarter to date has arguably done more to reinforce those worries than address them.

I don't see these "trust issues" as something that can easily be addressed in the near future. Your best bet from my perspective is to focus on "right sizing" the project and then executing on it to a very high degree of quality. If you can do this in addition to having a coherent, workable long term financial strategy, you'll begin to win the doubters back and make money in the process.

...

This!

MACADEMIC 09-29-2013 09:32 PM

Ilya,

I've already suggested a change of project goals a while ago. I'm happy you're considering this now. In my opinion, reading the KS guidelines, you can do this. You can't however change the promised rewards, effectively they could change as well however once the project goals have changed. This is so because of the way they are formulated.

My suggestion:

- use the kickstarter funds to create the base game
- create one or two trainer aircraft (a Tiger Moth and/or a B├╝cker Jungmann)
- release the game and trainer aircraft for free
- in the game, create a training infrastructure that allows newcomers to find experienced instructors to help them fly hi-fi trainer planes
- award backers of above $20 or above $30 with digital copies of the P-51 and/or FW190 only
- thus game will intially be populated by trainers, P-51s and FW190s
- release the three other aircraft some time after game release as commercial products at DCS level pricing

The way I see it, if you come out with a very honest assessment now, that this is the way to make this project happen, and that it otherwise has become unfeasible to pursue the original goals, you will still have this community behind you and you will still meet the original funding goal. The aim now has to be to make this project sustainable long term and not to aim for stretch goals.

MAC

Royraiden 09-29-2013 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT 5.0 (Post 1889813)
Yes, once someone make a pledge, it is now a legal contract. llya would not be able to change that, and I'm sure he would'nt even think of such a thing

Great, but my concern about people not understanding it still worries me though:cry:

Boris 09-29-2013 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cichlidfan (Post 1889820)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pizzicato (Post 1889820)

I tend to agree.

As it stands I see several obstacles, most of which are pretty much insurmountable at this stage:

...

4. The frequent changes of focus (first you were going for a brand new audience, then you shifted to the hardcore), the increasingly complex/confusing pledge rewards, the indecisiveness over stretch goals, the rather amateurish videos and the general lack of communication with the community make the whole endeavour seem rather unprofessional and poorly thought out.

I don't mean any of this to sound nasty or personal (I really, really don't), but it's very pertinent to the issue at hand. Whatever the rights and wrongs of it, there are concerns around your ability to deliver what you promise and the execution of the Kickstarter to date has arguably done more to reinforce those worries than address them.

I don't see these "trust issues" as something that can easily be addressed in the near future. Your best bet from my perspective is to focus on "right sizing" the project and then executing on it to a very high degree of quality. If you can do this in addition to having a coherent, workable long term financial strategy, you'll begin to win the doubters back and make money in the process.

...

This!

All the more reason to seek exposure in the wider gaming community and to do it right this time!

Vampyre 09-29-2013 09:38 PM

I will admit, when I want to get someone interested in the DCS series then I show them a Glowing AMRAAM video to stoke the fires. He does some of the best videos I have seen for flight sims.

Changing rewards has created a lot of confusion in the past although I have always felt that three free flyables was a bit much. I would definatly offer only one flyable, namely the P-47. The other two aircraft have huge fan bases to tap to bring in extra revenue on release or extra pledges for the KS.

It was said earlier and I will repeat, Paypal is a no brainer. Definatly do this.

westr 09-29-2013 09:40 PM

Ilya I am glad that you are seeing that giving away 3 aircraft in your simulator is possibly a bad idea. I do think this is potentially why many have not backed. And I have to say it doesn't quite sit right with me that as someone who has backed the project substantially and financially I get no advantage over someone who did not back the project upon the games release, obviously if the project doesn't reach a stretch goal. Please don't take these comments the wrong way because I want them to be constructive. I want to see DCS WW2 develop desperately, I want to see some very important aircraft developed like the B17 mosquito and typhoon. And I want new maps and theatres developed. That's why I don't want to see your good work given away for nothing 1 aircraft free then the others must be purchased in my opinion.


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