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-   -   S3 Refuel (https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=238778)

Cunning_Fox 04-13-2019 12:08 AM

S3 Refuel
 
How do you refuel from a Viking?


As soon as the cone is deployed, by some magic your plane starts violently moving up and down and even a miniscule change in throttle percentage either sends it forward into the refueling aircraft or makes it drop. This is by far the worst throttle in the game, and I have all the modules. The reaction time on this thing is atrocious and the travel that is needed for the adjustments is horrible - moving from 250 knots to over 300 is a 3mm difference on X-55, not to mention the confusing speedometer.


This is ridiculous. No matter how much you trim the plane beforehand, the trim goes out the window when he deploys the cone.


I spend maybe a quarter of the tank trying to connect. Not only is it not viable option to refuel, I would rather land on the carrier twenty times than do this.


There is no point of reference. You can't see him becasue the cone drops below the aircraft and he is blocked by the canopy support. So you just have to "imagine" where the aircraft is. I don't use TrackIR (I have it, but it's just awful). So, what's the way to go about this?

Ornithopter 04-13-2019 12:48 AM

I'm relatively new to aerial refueling, but no way is this "the worst throttle in the game". No way. It just takes practice, like everything else.

I can't advise you on your view problems, because I've never fueled from an S3 in the Tomcat. I think Track IR would help, not hinder, but I guess that is your call.

Here is some advice that was passed on to me. Sweep your wings into Bomb Mode. The real recommendation is for 40 degrees manual sweep, but control of the aircraft is even easier when the wings are swept past 50. Back that far, the automatic operation of the slats and manuever flaps is inhibited, and your trim will be more constant. And since your wings are well aft of where the wings would be if in Auto mode, there isn't going to be any automated movement of them, either.

VampireNZ 04-13-2019 01:05 AM

As above - 40 degrees minimum wing sweep is compulsory for refueling the Tomcat - so much easier! A couple of times I have been struggling to plug in and was like wtf - then checked the wings and for some reason they had swept fully fwd, re-swept them back and straight in.

Just sit off the tankers wing, sweep yours to 40+ and trim up the aircraft at the tankers speed, then move in.

The tanker speed makes a big difference too - a lot twitchier to refuel if you are too fast - try around 250-300 knots.

Personally I have found the F-14 the easiest a/c to tank with in DCS - generally just pop it in first or second go. Staying plugged when the tanker chucks it into a turn is another story lol. Saying that, I don't really like the Viking compared to the KCV-130/135 as much, and it carries bugger all fuel as well.

Even the old rule of 'don't watch the basket' doesn't really apply as the F-14 is so docile if you are gentle, you can generally just move fwd and guide the probe straight into the basket.

Cunning_Fox 04-13-2019 01:36 AM

I do it in bomb our auto mode, having watched the refueling tutorial video.


Seriously bad throttle control.


And you have to be at crash distance for him to deploy the cone. If you aren't - he will ask you to repeat attempt.


This is infuriating. You trim it just right, but because Tomcat is so vast and fat (like a cross between an overweight cat, a stingray, and a giant kite), any miniscule increase in throttle means you start climbing like crazy. So you have to adjust the trimmer like crazy, if you're trimmed to the tanker flight path - forget about it. I've already crashed three or four times into him. I'm doing stall speeds at the index, having set the Texaco dude to 260 knots in editor. Still, I either zoom past him or I lose him and never gain unless I jam the throttle forward until it reaches 400 (which takes years to bleed, since it takes years to deploy the airbrake).


And because the Viking is so small, I can't see him at all. Only the cone, which swings wildly as my aicraft loses all stability due to incredibly exaggerated jetwash.


It doesn't help that this is my first attempt at air refueling ever. But I swear to God, I could keep a damaged F-5E in a thunderstorm in a formation better than I can reach that cone in perfect weather on a Tomcat.

Ornithopter 04-13-2019 01:39 AM

I wasn't able to catch the drogue with any plane until I watched a video where the guy says it's like 90% mental, and that the key is relaxing your muscles for precision control. It's the death-grip that ruins the process. Didn't make a note of who made the video, but whoever it was, thanks-Keep making them, because you're definitely helping.

Cunning_Fox 04-13-2019 01:51 AM

I think you're right. I've landed the Tomcat on the carrier at first attempt, but this is just driving me nuts.


"Use the Force" indeed.






"Looks like I've picked the wrong week to quit smoking"

-(c) Airplane

Revs 04-13-2019 02:22 AM

You really have to try to manual sweep back, at 55° you will be very stable at the expence of delay and more power requirement due to higher AOA, which base on your post it is what you need. With that AOA it will need more power and has delayed reaction so you will constantly think ahead for your speed adjustments.

I like the manual sweep to 25-30° because with the lower AOA I Don’t need agressive throttle adjustment. To the point where I barely move them and are very responsive. Also jet is not pointing up as much so i can see the tanker if i fly a little lower and maintain it

I gather the learning progress should be 55° then work your way to being able Auto sweep.

VampireNZ 04-13-2019 02:29 AM

Edit: Tried to help the guy and got abused for my trouble. Sigh..

Cunning_Fox 04-13-2019 02:42 AM

S3 doesn't have TACAN, but the locking seems like a good idea.


That's the thing though - I don't fly behind it, I fly beneath it, but as soon as the cone drops the game thinks there is a giant plane in front of me and screws me up.


I've made it to the point where I use the nav mode and fix on the wing of the S3, which occupies the left bar of the heading ruler on top. I've almost caught it a few times, but then I forgot to silence Jester and he said "A LITTLE TO THE LEFT" and I jumped in my seat from nearly getting a heart attack and flew over the S3 swearing and shotuing.


Trust me, I'm on the radio all the time, it's all going "return pre-contact" "return pre-contact" "return pre-contact". I'd be banned if it was MP.


That's the thing, S3 is so small that it makes it hard to reference it since you can't really see anything unless you move your head forward. And when you do - you lose your point of reference. But more than this - it is so small, that when you try to catch up to it, it's just a dot in front of you. Then you add throttle to gain on him and by the time you see ti it zooms past you. If you do it slow - you'll never catch up to it. So you kind of have to predict when you need to pop the break.


And as for throttle I move it like 3 mm. I mean, seriously small movements. I've vertically landed a Harrier on a Carrier deck moving at 20 knots at night in storm, but this is even harder. My throttle is between 0 and 20%. Anything above that seems to make F-14 overtake the S3.


My curves are undajusted. Since they were unadjusted in real F-14, I am thinking why should I adjust them? And besides, if I adjust them for refuelling, they are going to be unresponsive in a dogfight. I have tried adjusting curves before up to +15 for roll and pitch and maybe -5 or +17 on pedals (depending on the airframe), but in the end I've settled on a +5 dead zone on all axes.


Thanks for the mission!

javelina1 04-13-2019 02:47 AM

Nice one Vampire.


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