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-   -   [REPORTED] RWR not showing locked radars in Search mode (https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=187487)

Aries144 05-14-2017 11:38 PM

[REPORTED] RWR not showing locked radars in Search mode
 
I've noticed that a radar locking onto the F-5 is only visible on the RWR by turning Search mode off. This results in having to cycle search mode on and off frequently to ensure no radar is locked onto the aircraft.

Is this realistic behavior? It seems a vast difference from all other American RWR systems.

BillyCrusher 05-15-2017 02:54 PM

1 Attachment(s)
See attached doc.

Eddie 05-21-2017 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aries144 (Post 3138998)
Is this realistic behavior?

No. I guess it's a case of either limitations of DCS and/or that BST have incorrectly interpreted/misunderstood the data they've found. I suspect a bit of both as the same issue affects other aircraft, it's just less noticeable as their RWRs are even more simplified.

At present in the F-5 TTRs are not shown at all unless they're actively tracking you, even if they're emitting DCS just knows that you're not the target and therefore doesn't bother to display anything. This issue is evident when you look at aircraft, air intercept RADARs are TTRs, they shouldn't show up at all in "Search" mode, as they are considered TTRs.

The only RADARs that should be filtered out without the "search" filter selected (using the logic BST has used, which isn't quite right) are EWRs and target acquisition RADARs (RADARs that are not involved in guiding a weapon on you). TTRs should be shown regardless of whether they are actively tracking you or not.

The symbology is also off (SA-6 being show as "06" rather than "6" for example), as is threat prioritisation. Audio is also greatly simplified, but that's been true for all DCS aircraft so far.

The F-5 as modelled now is an improvement over other aircraft in some areas, but still not presenting the information the pilot should get.

cofcorpse 05-21-2017 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddie (Post 3143941)
The F-5 as modelled now is an improvement over other aircraft in some areas, but still not presenting the information the pilot should get.

There are some interesting notes that we could really miss. But the first thing I want to ask you is you compare our implementation and real work of this particular device or with common logic in RWRs?

I'm asking this because it is modeled how we understood mentioned above description. And we, of course, can be wrong. This also concerns audio, because it is really simple - 5 different sounds and that's all.

If you have some information, could you share it with us so we could improve further, please?

FNU LNU 05-22-2017 08:18 AM

The SEARCH pushbutton should enable the display of search and acquisition radars that are otherwise suppressed from the azimuth display. Suppression of search radars declutters the azimuth display and is the default state. Selecting the SEARCH mode adds search and acquisition radars symbols to the display, up the maximum allowable number of symbols.

For audio, there is:

1) Threat audio. Threat audio for the emitter under the diamond is played continuously in the headset. The audio is created using the emitter's characteristics, e.g., PRF, scan pattern, scan volume, signal strength, etc. A rotating surveillance radar sounds very different than a conical scan or staring fire control radar. The audio directly correlates to the RF energy received at the aircraft, so the audio is the best indictator whether a lock has been broken. For emitters with PRFs outside the human audible range, synthetic digital audio is used. See here for how it's done:



2) New Guy audio. Three tones in 1.5 seconds at the emitter's PRF.

3) Missile Launch audio. 7 tones in 1.5 seconds at 1kHz.

cofcorpse 05-22-2017 05:56 PM

I see, that in SEARCH there are two groups that are mutually exclusive. And according your description they are not.

1) There are no words about this type of sound.

2) No. "It consists of two equal tones within 1 second that are used for various emitter classes of different sound levels (frequencies)." Two tones, not three.

3) It is done, but it works only if threat symbol is present (not excluded).

Ramsay 05-22-2017 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cofcorpse (Post 3144692)
1) There are no words about this type of sound.

As the RWR system is classified, the absence of written documentation is not surprising, however the presence of threat audio (PRF to audio) is confirmed in many publicly available cockpit video and audio tapes.

I've always assumed the lack proper RWR audio in DCS was due to politics - how to include "classified" audio, that's blocked by a NDA but available on the internet ? Rather than a lack of information.

I'd didn't find audio from a F-5 but there is an example from Criag Baker's F-105 Thunderchief site and which AFAIK had a similar AN/ALR-46 RWR system.

http://www.burrusspta.org/audiopage.html

Note: Audio No. 9, 10, 11, 12, and 13 contain sounds of the Vietnam era RWR with the sounds of "tracking radar" and "locked radar" indications (Fan Song). Audio 10-11 sound like they includes some synthetic RWR tones which DCS does model, mixed with the "threat audio" but the beeps might be a stall warning or similar.

No doubt, there are better examples on the internet, including in DCS's own A-10C user files.

General description of RWR signal processing AN/ALR-169 general RWR description (A-10 thread)

cofcorpse 05-22-2017 08:18 PM

I don't think that F-105 could be viable example how to proper implement RWR, just because it has different RWR, I assume.
Such devices greatly vary from one model to other in small things, though may be similar in general.

One thing that could be wrong is SEARCH filter, but there is still uncertainty. I may missed important information though and sorry if this is the case.

Ramsay 05-23-2017 12:28 AM

The AN/ALR-46 was a digital replacement for the analogue AN/APR-36 and AN/APR-26.

There's an old training film for the APR-26



It demonstrates threat audio tones and the general features missing from the DCS F-5E AN/ALR-46 RWR but obviously the newer system differs in sensitivity, RWR symbology, etc.

Threat audio tones could modelled at a basic level, perhaps as in the Viggen (through game values) but I admit to preferring the Battlespace Sim Inc. approach of using public (wiki/google) sweep and PFR rates with side-lobe modelling to generate 'realistic' synthetic RWR audio tones (that don't run fowl of NDA's, etc.).

Quote:

I don't think that F-105 could be viable example how to proper implement RWR, just because it has different RWR
AFAIK the F-105G carried the AN/ALR-46 RWR, however I believe you are correct, not all F-105's carried the same RWR equipment and the tones heard in the flight recordings may be from a different system.

GGTharos 05-23-2017 12:41 AM

I would suggest that the 'search' filter is a declutter option, and there are two possibilities:

1. ON - Shows SEARCH radars (RWRs and other non-threat) in addition to symbols when search is off
2. ON - Shows ANY radar in search mode in addition to symbols when search is off

However, it would still prioritize threats and display them normally. The purpose of leaving search radars in "OFF" is to display fewer things on the RWR, not to display ONLY radars in search mode. IMHO.

This is all about either clutter and/or processing power. Most likely it is about clutter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cofcorpse (Post 3144817)
I don't think that F-105 could be viable example how to proper implement RWR, just because it has different RWR, I assume.
Such devices greatly vary from one model to other in small things, though may be similar in general.

One thing that could be wrong is SEARCH filter, but there is still uncertainty. I may missed important information though and sorry if this is the case.



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