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-   Western Europe 1944-1945 (https://forums.eagle.ru/forumdisplay.php?f=340)
-   -   The Battle of the Stretch Goal (https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=114788)

hegykc 09-29-2013 09:41 PM

Yes! A free trainer aircraft.

Or, if it would be possible, a fighter without guns and only 20% fuel. So you would be able to do takeoffs, landings, and explore the world.

Also, I have yet to see a single person complaining about the prospect of the aircraft not being free for non backers. And so many are suggesting to make it so.

MACADEMIC 09-29-2013 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Royraiden (Post 1889826)
Great, but my concern about people not understanding it still worries me though:cry:

From the rewards descriptions:

Quote:

Pledge $20 or more: Everything at the previous level, plus a digital copy of one additional flyable aircraft of your choice."]Everything at the previous level, plus a digital copy of one additional flyable aircraft of your choice.
Quote:

Pledge $30 or more: Everything at the $10 level, plus a digital copy of two additional flyable aircraft of your choice.
It says nowhere that you are entitled to three flyable aircraft for free. You can't change the rewards as soon as there are takers, but you can change the project goals (see Kickstarter guidelines). Hence, as long as there is at least one flyable aircraft that will be delivered for free, the quoted rewards would be satisfied by delivering the Mustang and/or the Dora.

MAC

Hans-Joachim Marseille 09-29-2013 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MACADEMIC (Post 1889840)
Hence, as long as there is at least one flyable aircraft that will be delivered for free, ...

Su-25T (^.-)

ff4life4 09-29-2013 09:47 PM

"The free downloadable version of Europe 1944 will include THREE fully flyable aircraft, each arguably more famous than the next: the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt fighter/ground attack aircraft, the Supermarine Spitfire fighter, and the German Messerschmitt Bf.109K. Non-player-controllable versions of all other aircraft will also be included, allowing the players to see them in action at any time."

This was quoted from the Kickstarter page. I think this is the statement that is potentially confusing among everyone

Bearcat 09-29-2013 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadTommy (Post 1889733)
Paypal is a no brainer IMO, lots of younger games can often only pay via paypal.

You should be posting the kickstarter updates on the major game forums. Here, SimHQ etc etc. Having them only on kickstarter is fairly useless, it does not reach new people. Each update should get its own thread.

At the very least here and SHQ..

Quote:

Originally Posted by hegykc (Post 1889773)
I'm a huge DCS and WWII sim fan. I own every DCS module, but I haven't pledged yet.

Why? Because of the "free" thing. Money is tight, and I can't afford to pay for others to have free content. I'll feel bad and a traitor for it, but it's the most logical thing to do given the choice to have it for free.
But I will gladly pay for any additional content you can offer after the initial release.

So my suggestion would be to make the free content limited, but as good as possible. So quality not quantity. That will be the best marketing campaign you can imagine.

Then after the initial release, use the content you have, and use the skilled video makers that this forum can offer and make a killer trailer for "what could be". And I mean let these guys do their magic. With radio comms, voice overs and what not. Make it a small blockbuster.

I mean, you sold one million copies of Il-2, you gotta know there are more than 1600 simmers out there. If you make 3 DCS level WWII planes, and tie it up into a playable WWII map, you are set!

After that, you say jump! We ask how high?

I don't own every DCS module and do not plan to .. but I will do what I can and have for this WWII venture.. I am not asking how high.. I am saying I have given supprt.. now show me.. something..

Quote:

Originally Posted by MACADEMIC (Post 1889840)
From the rewards descriptions:

It says nowhere that you are entitled to three flyable aircraft for free. You can't change the rewards as soon as there are takers, but you can change the project goals (see Kickstarter guidelines). Hence, as long as there is at least one flyable aircraft that will be delivered for free, the quoted rewards would be satisfied by delivering the Mustang and/or the Dora.
MAC

Yeah that makes no Sense to me either.. but then we still do not know what will come in the initial release. I would imagine that at least two flyables would come in the initial release..

Bucic 09-29-2013 09:52 PM

A copy/paste:
Quote:

Bucic 35 minutes ago

@Ilya
The 'drastic measure':
"Free version of DCS WWII contains ONE free aircraft (to be voted for by backers)."
By all means - yes!
I say go ahead with the 'drastic measure' i.e. cut the set of free flyables. Even one german plus one allied fighter of DCS-level, i.e. military-grade, fidelity is already too generous, IMO. A good alternative though, as a 'less drastic' scenario.

#5
1. No more 'my vision is...' videos.
I know it sounds harsh but there were not enough actual content coverage so far to make room for this kind of videos. Especially that you're only partially correct with your points, e.g. there's nothing you can do to change the fact that it's a world of change if one has rudder pedals, let alone a higher-grader control stick + throttle. So please leave this subject to after the KS closes.
2. Clearing up *the tough issues*: your 'previous project', how will 'the DCS World is actually the weak link of DCS WWII technologically' be dealt with (graphics, AI, damage model) and so on.
3. Have 1 person scanning the comments and ED forums for unanswered questions so he can prioritize them for you and go back with answers ASAP.

#1
Please go ahead but also please review the following before commencing any works on the video:
On presentation of DCS
http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php…
DCS cameras, views and video recording
http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php…

#2
Please don't. Too confusing, as you said, and too late.

#3
YES! I wasn't happy myself I couldn't use my PayPal account to pledge.
Quote:

Bucic 2 minutes ago

On the 'drastic measure':
Please don't consider 'special versions' for backers as an alternative for taking away the free flyables. I think you need to create an incentive for the non-backers rather than further squeeze the backers. Bringing back hardcopy manuals is the only change in rewards I see that would make sense.

"It looks like that 9 out of 10 people checking out the project never bother to check the updates. So whatever we do, it probably has to go right up there to the main spot and not into one of the updates."
Good observation as well as an argument against trying to turn the world around and rip your heart out trying to bring 'casuals' to hardcore simming. What hardcore simming does and always will require is a freaking slightest effort and a set of proper controls.

One single best idea in this regard I've seen was a dual seat whatever aircraft for community assisted training, if you insist on pursuing the idea of 'easy in'.

One more thing - there's absolutely no reason to give up on the $150k goal for Me 262 yet! Especially if you take away the most free flyables from the bystanders. And the perspective of post-kickstarter funding doesn't change that.

"I certainly couldn't in good faith ask a friend to back a campaign who was getting less for their money than I am for the same."
Well, those first to back a project usually gets rewarded so...

The ATAG guys:
I'm with Soeren Dalsgaard on this one. They are important backers right from the start and the questions raised on their forums should be answered first.



Quote:

Originally Posted by MACADEMIC (Post 1889825)

My suggestion:

- use the kickstarter funds to create the base game
- create one or two trainer aircraft (a Tiger Moth and/or a Bücker Jungmann)
- release the game and trainer aircraft for free
- in the game, create a training infrastructure that allows newcomers to find experienced instructors to help them fly hi-fi trainer planes
- award backers of above $20 or above $30 with digital copies of the P-51 and/or FW190 only
- thus game will intially be populated by trainers, P-51s and FW190s
- release the three other aircraft some time after game release as commercial products at DCS level pricing

The way I see it, if you come out with a very honest assessment now, that this is the way to make this project happen, and that it otherwise has become unfeasible to pursue the original goals, you will still have this community behind you and you will still meet the original funding goal. The aim now has to be to make this project sustainable long term and not to aim for stretch goals.

MAC

So in short:
do one - do well -> demonstrate it -> get set for the next one
AND
honest assesments

I like it!

mazex 09-29-2013 10:06 PM

And something else that I think you should add that will draw casual players into the game after it's released (but will not give anything for the Kickstarter) is a Warbirds style online war. Both sides try to capture air bases from the other side by taking out the AAA, control tower etc and then drop paratroopers to capture it.

Cheesy? Yes of course! The full real hard core guys will hate it. But for the ones you talk about that don't know what induced drag is (and don't care about boring training missions) - I am pretty sure it will work very well!

EDIT - thinking of it. In Normany it could be used in a way that at least is a bit more "realistic". A number of "choke points" (flags) are marked on the map. After the landing of troops on the invasion beach the "flags" closest to the beach start flashing. Then it's up to the bombers/CAS aircraft to take out a number of clearly known things in that area. If it's a bridge flashing it's a no brainer what to destroy, if it's a rail junction you maybe have to take out some trains and some AAA defences etc. After the targets are down the area is captured by your side and the "front line moves". Wasn't CFS3 having some attempt at that that did not work that good? For online it could be a lot of fun if well implemented, and I guess it could work good for off-line to? The fighters naturally have to protect their own bombers/CAS, and take out the ones from the other side. A bit like the regular online missions in IL2, but with a dynamic map where things happen. Naturally a lot of work to do it really slick - but if not "overdone" I guess it could be done?

ff4life4 09-29-2013 10:23 PM

I think the biggest problem is that they offered 3 aircraft for free. By looking at this again it appears that the backers who pledged $40 would get "3 additional aircraft". Additional meaning extra aircraft on top of the 3 they initially said would be free.

I think they were expecting to get a lot more backing and would reach many stretch goals and end up producing 7 or 8 aircraft. Then those who pledged say, $40 would get the 3 free, plus, 3 additional aircraft produced.

This is how I see and understand it, and it appears there is a tremendous amount of confusion about how the entire backing tier structure works and what is actually getting delivered.

I firmly believe that they shot themselves in the foot by offering 3 aircraft for free. This has made many potential backers choose to not invest. Many probably thought "why would I pay to get aircraft that others will get for free on release?" If anything they should have offered a trainer for free so that players who were on the fence about pledging can get to try the immersive training and really get to enjoy the product. They may later go on to purchase additional models (at full price) if they really enjoyed the product.

At this point I'm not sure what can be done. There has been a lot of negative press about KS lateley and them doing something dramatic can really hurt their reputation. I think what is done is done. I hope that everything goes well for them because this has a potential to be a groundbreaking project.

Like always, this is just my personal $.02 on the issue.

EDIT:

To clear confusion I am not advocating that only one trainer should be available upon release. Only that non-pledgers should have that aircraft for free. The pledgers will get the aircraft that they paid for

Hans-Joachim Marseille 09-29-2013 10:38 PM

Oh my goodness ... capture the flag with flashing objects, no planes on initial release but trainers and the (by then) already established Mustang and Dora.
Any more ways to kill this game? Don't get me wrong; I like the idea of non-pledgers being able to fly around the free map in a trainer, but no additional planes on initial release for pledgers?

ff4life4 09-29-2013 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans-Joachim Marseille (Post 1889882)
Oh my goodness ... capture the flag with flashing objects, no planes on initial release but trainers and the (by then) already established Mustang and Dora.
Any more ways to kill this game? Don't get me wrong; I like the idea of non-pledgers being able to fly around the free map in a trainer, but no additional planes on initial release for pledgers?

I was not advocating that pledgers shoudn't have aircraft on release. I was stating that there is the fact that the 3 aircraft are going to be release for free upon completion.

I said that the only free aircraft for non-pledgers should be a trainer aircraft. The pledgers should get the additional aircraft that they paid for.

I was stating that the way it is now it appears that someone who pledged nothing will get almost the same benefit as someone who pledged $40

Barrett_g 09-29-2013 10:43 PM

I think the ME-262 stretch goal should be changed to a Tempest or a Typhoon.... So you have 2 American planes, 2 German planes, and 2 British planes.... But that's another topic all together.

As far as changing what you have now...You don't want to limit the initial release to only 1 free plane.... The last thing you want is a million P-47's scouring the online map for one poor bastard that paid for the FW-190.

At the very least.... The initial release should be a pair. "P-47 vs ME-109." It'll keep the online matches fair as all these new players will supplement the already released P-51 and soon to be released FW-190.

Consider the Spit and any other stretch-goal aircraft as a bonus for supporting.

hegykc 09-29-2013 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans-Joachim Marseille (Post 1889882)
but no additional planes on initial release for pledgers?

Where did you get that from?

The idea is to make everything payware, except for the trainer.

You get planes either by backing, or by buying after the release.

159th_Falcon 09-29-2013 10:52 PM

Don't have any really good idea's other then;

Accept Paypal!!!

Even if it only gives you an additional 10% in pledges that alone is already;
12.000$



Which i think is on the very conservative side given the fact that a LOT of people don't have a credit card.
And anno 2013, in the aftermath of the economic crises, it sure has not got easier to get one either.

So really, accept paypal and you WILL see an significant influx in pledges.

Make sure to announce it everywhere though, and make sure its impossible to miss.

Cause people won't pay for something they don't know they can pay for.

Fudge 09-29-2013 10:53 PM

I agree with what others are saying here and the comments section. The three free aircraft seems too high. With only 5 to fly at the moment any new players enticed by the free aircraft are unlikely to stick around for too long.

I still feel the Kickstarter required addons to allow people to customise their pledges to how they wanted them. Examples of which are in the text document I sent via Kickstarter. Edited version here https://www.dropbox.com/s/kprpuvvppi...ter%20Help.odt

Most importantly Keep funding open after Kickstarter to help reach the stretch goals. Kickstarters (over the current $40) will get any of the goals hit through additional funding. The additional funding should have higher pricing (still lower than final) to reward those who have backed early on in this Kickstarter. As you hit the steach goals the reward prices should raise to reflect the additional value.

Doing this would mean current backers get best value and it's profitable for them to get as many people as they can to add to the funds.

Also keeps the people informed with video updates, live streams, WIP screen shots, polls.

Hans-Joachim Marseille 09-29-2013 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hegykc (Post 1889887)
Where did you get that from?

Post #27, by MAC. Although I quite like the free trainer idea, not the below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MACADEMIC (Post 1889825)
- award backers of above $20 or above $30 with digital copies of the P-51 and/or FW190 only
- thus game will intially be populated by trainers, P-51s and FW190s
- release the three other aircraft some time after game release as commercial products at DCS level pricing


Bucic 09-29-2013 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 159th_Falcon (Post 1889889)
Don't have any really good idea's other then;

Accept Paypal!!!

Even if it only gives you an additional 10% in pledges that alone is already;
12.000$



Which i think is on the very conservative side given the fact that a LOT of people don't have a credit card.
And anno 2013, in the aftermath of the economic crises, it sure has not got easier to get one either.

So really, accept paypal and you WILL see an significant influx in pledges.

Make sure to announce it everywhere though, and make sure its impossible to miss.

Cause people won't pay for something they don't know they can pay for.

Just a reminder - any card should work, even a standard payment card.

Fuzzy_bear 09-29-2013 10:57 PM

I love WW2 era fighters and I'm hovering my mouse over the blank area where the paypal option is missing..

Unfortunately for me anything regarding money online is either payed with paypal or not payed at all... that simple

hegykc 09-29-2013 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans-Joachim Marseille (Post 1889893)
Post #27, by MAC.

Oh I see. But that would be a breach of kickstarter rules?

159th_Falcon 09-29-2013 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucic (Post 1889895)
Just a reminder - any card should work, even a standard payment card.

A standard payment card would only work if it is an credit card as well.

Which at least in NL is definitely NOT standard.

bongodriver 09-29-2013 11:06 PM

1. paypal

2. only 1 free combat aircraft for non pledgers

3. a cute little trainer for free.....not a Tiger Moth, T-6 or a Bucker is good

4. do it now.....clocks ticking

job done!

9./JG27 DavidRed 09-29-2013 11:08 PM

well, accept paypal, make a killer video, and for the sake of the kickstarter, make only one of the three planes freeware...
i wanted to set up a poll which of the three ones should be the free plane, but im too stupid or tired or both to find out how i make a poll...anybody so kind?

159th_Falcon 09-29-2013 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongodriver (Post 1889905)
1.paypal

2. no free aircraft for non pledgers

3. a cute little trainer

4. do it now

job done!

Agree. though having a free aircraft, even a trainer may proof beneficial in the future.

Like the 25T is for DCS World.

***EDIT***
Also, Point number four is important. The longer you wait the smaller change you will have.
You may want to think about changing the goals etc, but Paypal is pretty much guaranteed to be a succes.

Implement it NOW, don't wait till tomorrow cause it will be to late.

bongodriver 09-29-2013 11:11 PM

edited

NoCarrier 09-29-2013 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthier1 (Post 1889689)
When I was just planning this kickstrter out, I really thought that we'd break through the base and end up meeting a whole bunch of the stretch goals. I really thought that we'd be building a much bigger project than what it looks like today.

Come on, Ilya, you have stretch goals set at several hundred thousand dollars. Several hundred thousand dollars worth of pledges for a new product in a genre that has basically become niche, as you yourself pointed out in one of your videos. If you take a look at the most succesful video game Kickstarter to date, you'll notice that the biggest ones raised about two million dollars, three million at the very maximum. All of them by developers with a widely recognized name in the video game industry. All of them in genres that are mainstream—RPGs, adventure games, and space combat games. I took one look at your stretch goals, and I knew your chances of making even one of them were pretty slim. I still pledged, but I'm sorry to say, I don't think you were very realistic in setting them.

Honestly, I think at this point you need to be realistic about the fact that you're not going to rake in another several hundred thousand dollars. Start thinking about how to squeeze every development second you can from the dollars that were pledged. Your Kickstarter campaign for a WWII combat flight simulator made it with a comfortable margin. That alone is a great accomplishment, and indicates that your name does carry some weight. It wasn't the promo material that convinced me, and I'm sure that goes for most of us.

Oh, and cut back on the number of free aircraft modules. No-one wants to feel like a sucker. But you knew that.

MACADEMIC 09-29-2013 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hegykc (Post 1889897)
Oh I see. But that would be a breach of kickstarter rules?

Here's the list of things that can be changed and that can't from the KS 'Creator FAQs':

"Can a project be edited after launching?

Yes, you can edit the following content after launching:

— Project description

— Video and image

— Rewards (add new ones or edit those not yet backed)

— Your profile

— Project FAQs

The only things that cannot be edited after launch are:

— The funding goal

— The project deadline

— Your Kickstarter name

— Rewards that have already been selected by a backer"

The goal stated on DCS WWII: Europe 1944 is:

"The initial kickstarter goal is needed to fund a longer more extensive beta testing period for the game, giving all its components extra polish, and to make the game landscape more alive by creating a larger variety of ground objects and vehicles, and spending more time to hand-craft various historical areas such as accurate recreations of more coastline villages, important bridges, unique airfields, and more."

So while the free flyable aircraft to be included with the game as a free download is part of the project description, this description can be changed while leaving the original funding goal (above) intact (it's a tightrope act, I know, but if it's technically possible it's probably better than a cancellation, see below).

If such a change is based on an honest and openly publicised assessment of the situation, it is my opinion that most people will upheld their funding and the original funding goal will still be met. Others would be entirely free to withdraw their pledge.

The important thing here is to make such a change while the KS campaign is ongoing. Once it's finished and pledges are collected, the creator could make himself liable for refund and/or legal action if it turns out that he is unable to complete the project and deliver on the reward promises.

From the FAQ's:

"If I am unable to complete my project as promised, what should I do?

If you realize that you will be unable to follow through on your project before funding has ended, you are expected to cancel it. If your project is successfully funded, you are required to fulfill all rewards or refund any backer whose reward you do not or cannot fulfill. A failure to do so could result in damage to your reputation or even legal action by your backers.
To avoid problems, don't over-promise when creating your project. If issues arise, communicate immediately, openly, and honestly with your backers."

MAC

Vampyre 09-29-2013 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans-Joachim Marseille (Post 1889882)
Oh my goodness ... capture the flag with flashing objects, no planes on initial release but trainers and the (by then) already established Mustang and Dora.
Any more ways to kill this game? Don't get me wrong; I like the idea of non-pledgers being able to fly around the free map in a trainer, but no additional planes on initial release for pledgers?

True, I for one believe the hook for this project to be a free flyable COMBAT aircraft. I will tell you that if I were trying out a new combat sim and the best I can hope to to accomplish is take off and land and hopefully not get shot down then I wouldn't bother with the rest of the game. If I don't even have anything to compete with when trying it out then i will go elsewhere. The free aircraft in DCS World (Su-25T) is a combat type. If you have a combat arena that is touted as such, you need a combat type to fully explore that world and have the full experience to make the decision to purchase other combat types that one would find of interest. I still fly the Su-25T even though I have most of the other modules as well. A trainer is of limited use in combat and will only draw the most hardcore of sim pilots which equates to low sales. The capture the flag and flashing objects idea... I surely hope not.

9./JG27 DavidRed 09-29-2013 11:30 PM

+1

Lord_Pyro 09-29-2013 11:33 PM

To make a trailer it is too late, even if it would be rusehd out today the campaign is almost over.

Paypal would have been a good idea, i know some people who couldn't bake this project and were deliberately asking for paypal. Some of them got their selves a credit card, but not all of them. But again, it probably is a little bit too late to raise som 30k$ by this. But it's still worth a try.

ff4life4 09-29-2013 11:35 PM

Mac I agree with your assessment about the free aircraft. It would be a tightrope indeed especially with all the press surrounding Kickstarter at the moment.

The only issue I see is that while the free aircraft are in the product description, they are pretty much "deliverables" meaning that they are promised. The backers will all understand the change but non backers may not, and bad press could ensue causing significant issues.

This is an extreme idea, but what if they cancelled the KS campaign, took a few weeks to get their heads straight, and start over with another campaign. A campaign that is CLEAR about what the deliverables are, and what the stretch goals are. I'm also not sure that an ME 262 is the best stretch goal as I feel there may be more interested in another one of the WW2 aircraft.

Perhaps they could also produce more gameplay videos and screenshots of their work and not mostly of P51 and Dora which is being produced by ED. I know a campaign restart is very extreme but it may be the only option. Better than having this one complete and not have enough funds to satisfy the current deliverables and bury the project forever. And perhaps take the DCS name down as well.

Edit: Also don't get me wrong a campaign restart will have its backlashes as well, it just appears they are between a rock and a hard place. Either try to produce the deliverables with what appears to be too little funds, or have to suffer the repercussion of having a campaign restart.

MACADEMIC 09-29-2013 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans-Joachim Marseille (Post 1889893)
Post #27, by MAC. Although I quite like the free trainer idea, not the below.

Of course it's a nice thought that $30 invested early would give you a total of 5 DCS level warbirds plus a free game. However in my opinion belongs to the category 'If something sounds too good to be true, it most likely isn't'. $6 per DCS level airplane is way too little money for the value.

I'd rather fund something that can be financially viable and has a chance to exist than an utopic dream. Even if I have to pay more to get those planes later on.

MAC


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