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-   -   The Battle of the Stretch Goal (https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=114788)

bongodriver 09-30-2013 11:50 AM

really need that paypal option, even some of the harshest sceptics say they'd pledge on that basis, might even push the kicktraq trend to the first stretch goal, $40 pledgers would get a free 262 and a major chunk of credibility restored.

Cnuke 09-30-2013 11:50 AM

Maybe a good idea to include the last post from Ilya in your post as a link in the bottom.
So it isn't too confusing for us.




Latest post Ilya in this thread:
http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?...2&postcount=91

Hans-Joachim Marseille 09-30-2013 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luthier1 (Post 1890172)
All right folks, pretty much ready to hit Publish on the new changes on KS that reset the NON BACKER free game to one flyable aircraft.

While opinions differ, I will not change anything with any existing rewards tiers. I.e. if you had backed at $1 before, or will back at $1 at any time before Oct 5, you WILL receive the three currently stated free aircraft.

While I understand that decision, based on (I think) being able to show your main funders a large number of pledgers, I still think it's incredibly unfair to those that don't know about this KickStarter yet and would have pledged. Putting in $1 before Oct. 5 will get you the whole thing for free, and after Oct. 5 not? Repeating myself; the fence-sitters and free-loaders will laughingly put in their dollar and get away with it. Please reconsider, and think about the guy that is currently on business travel or going through personal trouble. You're not talking to the "one dollar crowd" here (apart from that one troll maybe). Asking $40 for 3 planes is not too much, giving them away for $1 is.

TimeKilla 09-30-2013 11:59 AM

If thats what they want to do thats what they want to do.

Havner 09-30-2013 11:59 AM

I'm just afraid that if Ilya will go on with his plan we'll see a lot of 1$ pledges till the end of the KS (surprised they aren't there already) as this option will still get you all 3 planes.

This will not increase the fund much. If he's going for one free plane only then the current state of 1$ should be locked.

hegykc 09-30-2013 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Havner (Post 1890470)
I'm just afraid that if Ilya will go on with his plan we'll see a lot of 1$ pledges till the end of the KS (surprised they aren't there already) as this option will still get you all 3 planes.

The trend is showing already. It was sitting at 36 one $ pledges for days, now it is up to 40 in under an hour.

Havner 09-30-2013 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hegykc (Post 1890476)
The trend is showing already. It was sitting at 36 one $ pledges for days, now it is up to 40 in under an hour.

Said by a guy that owns one of those 4 new :P

TimeKilla 09-30-2013 12:05 PM

Maybe they just can't accept that maybe KS has been milked and were not going to reach the stretched goals no matter what is changed?

hegykc 09-30-2013 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Havner (Post 1890478)
Said by a guy that owns one of those 4 new :P

I'm helping him realize the dangers of that path :music_whistling:

Cnuke 09-30-2013 12:10 PM

"incredibly unfair" (It's just the KS as it was for a month??? with a few days to go it's being unfair?)

I believe there will be 1$ pledges and maybe a lot. But moving those that wouldn't back at all, are now considering to back at any pledge for the few days left.
A backer is good on board, it generates influences amongst their friends, relatives. Just a few days that can be enough to get a stir for newer backers.

If the non-backers are changed to limit 1 or possibly 2 planes (allies-axis)
For a realistic multiplayer (wich this title should be on the fence about)

It is a reasonable thing to maintain the promise for a backer on KS and not to divide backers amongst eachother.





Latest post Ilya in this thread:
http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?...2&postcount=91

mazex 09-30-2013 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans-Joachim Marseille (Post 1889882)
Oh my goodness ... capture the flag with flashing objects...

Just like I said, the 3000 "full real hardcore" ww2 sim pilots in the world will hate this cheesy idea ;-) And for the record, the thought was that the objective would flash on the map and not the objects in the world... I don't want to go all in...

But I truly believe that combining a real hardcore sim engine with the game play elements that drag hundreds of thousands of players into War thunder could be an investment that pays off to drag new blood into our small niche? I have been wrong before though :)

For me it's very annoying to play a flight simulator that does not give a realistic immersion of flying a real aircraft, but having some cheesy "fun for all" multiplayer modes would be nice the evenings when you just have 30-60 mins for gaming. For someone new to the genre it may not be their idea of fun to spend 45 minutes just to find the action and then get shot down without knowing what hit them? But it sure is realistic ;-) But will they come back after a few more sorties like that?

There must be a reason why UK dedicated 1 is so popular on Hyperlobby, even though it has cockpits off etc, and some fast action like the one I propose... No arcade FM etc, but fast action for us that still remember all the Biggles books :)

Hans-Joachim Marseille 09-30-2013 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cnuke (Post 1890482)
It is a reasonable thing to maintain the promise for a backer on KS and not to divide backers amongst each other.

I don't really care for the $1 pledge crowd; they're like free-loaders in my opinion. Among us we have a fellow that generated his $40 pledge by doing farm work. He didn't have funds to pledge before that. After Oct. 5, people who find out about the KickStarter will be left with one free plane, while the free-loaders will have it all for $1. You think that is fair? All planes for $40 is fair. And until yesterday I was under the impression that you would have to put in $40 to get all. My bad, but that's my idea of fairness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mazex (Post 1890514)
Just like I said, the 3000 "full real hardcore" ww2 sim pilots in the world will hate this cheesy idea ;-)

It's just not my "cup of tea". I associate "capture the flag" with chaotic multi-player attempts and teamkillers.

TimeKilla 09-30-2013 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans-Joachim Marseille (Post 1890531)
And until yesterday I was under the impression that you would have to put in $40 to get all. My bad, but that's my idea of fairness.

It's just not my "cup of tea". I associate "capture the flag" with chaotic multi-player attempts and teamkillers.

So was I when you read the $1 reward it says nothing about getting all the planes for free just access to forums and such.

Cnuke 09-30-2013 02:00 PM

Don't mention "all" :) but the three currently stated free aircraft.




Since this a long thread I repeat this:

Latest post Ilya in this thread:
http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?...2&postcount=91

dburne 09-30-2013 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimeKilla (Post 1890567)
So was I when you read the $1 reward it says nothing about getting all the planes for free just access to forums and such.

That is the way I read it as well...

Vlerkies 09-30-2013 02:01 PM

1. That Amraam fellow is your huckleberry. ;)

2. Really, this almost made me cancel my pledge. I am so confused as it is with what I have put in against what I may get. It could not be more confusing if you tried.

3. Right from the start one of the first questions that came up was why no Paypal! Of course this is a good idea.

4. To me, just bundle the P-51 and the Fw190 with a good map, thats it, theres your project off the ground with a loyal following bar none. Bundle dedicated server software on release and the lobbies will fill up overnight!!!!
All this other stuff can come later, and personally, a Me-262, why? Wtf are we going to do with that, seriously?
Rather the fighters and much later 2 heavy bombers ( much later)

5. The economics of this type of development escape me however from a loyal customer perspective that owns practically every DCS module, things are changing to much.
Set a direction that is concrete, its all a bit iffy at the moment.
People want to know that if they part with their money, something (even one airframe) will come out of it.
The focus of all the feedback seems to be on stretch goals when nothing is really guaranteed on the initial goals.

Please, this is me trying to add constructive criticism. I do not live on the forums everyday, so am not up to speed with what has or has not been said, consider this the opinion of someone that has pledged, is a bit confused and who's opinion is based on the email feedback from the Dev team+vid links only.

I respect this dev team incredibly. Some of the best names in flight sim development assembled trying to get this to fly, and I really hope it all comes off.

Havner 09-30-2013 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimeKilla (Post 1890567)
So was I when you read the $1 reward it says nothing about getting all the planes for free just access to forums and such.

Don't you guys read the description of a project you supposedly took part in? It was stated explicitly that 3 planes will be free. So if $0 gets you them $1 gets you them as well.

This whole KS hasn't been thought through as without stretch goals there is virtually no difference between $10 and $40 pledge (assuming you'll get p15d and dora before the release which is probably a case for majority). And the only difference between $0 and $10/$40 is/was alpha/beta access.

NineLine 09-30-2013 02:08 PM

Option #4 is how it should have been all along, I think a lot of money was lost based on the fact that 0 - 40 get the same thing...

dburne 09-30-2013 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Havner (Post 1890596)
Don't you guys read the description of a project you supposedly took part in? It was stated explicitly that 3 planes will be free. So if $0 gets you them $1 gets you them as well.

This whole KS hasn't been thought through as without stretch goals there is virtually no difference between $10 and $40 pledge (assuming you'll get p15d and dora before the release which is probably a case for majority). And the only difference between $0 and $10/$40 is/was alpha/beta access.

Actually no, I did not scroll that far down through all the details/pictures to get to the part that the free downloadable version will include three fully flyable aircraft. I doubt I am the only one that did not, I pay more attention to what is listed in what I initially am looking at on the site. And what I saw immediately were the different pledge amounts and what it got you, should one choose a reward based on the pledge. And frankly I had a hard time trying to figure out, just what reward I would get based on what I was reading.
And yes, I not only took part in it, but more than doubled my pledge here a couple of weeks or so ago. First one that comes up, is the $1.00 or more pledge stating you get " Our heartfelt thanks, access to the backer section with weekly development updates, videos, and more, and a special BACKER medal "

BabyJail 09-30-2013 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d.burnette (Post 1890627)
First one that comes up, is the $1.00 or more pledge stating you get " Our heartfelt thanks, access to the backer section with weekly development updates, videos, and more, and a special BACKER medal "

They should have mentioned right up top that the base game with three planes will be free to play, with additional planes as "modules" that can be baught and plugged into the F2P-base-game.

Needs not more cowbell, but smarter PR, really.

Hans-Joachim Marseille 09-30-2013 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Havner (Post 1890596)
Don't you guys read the description of a project you supposedly took part in? It was stated explicitly that 3 planes will be free. So if $0 gets you them $1 gets you them as well.

This whole KS hasn't been thought through as without stretch goals there is virtually no difference between $10 and $40 pledge (assuming you'll get p15d and dora before the release which is probably a case for majority). And the only difference between $0 and $10/$40 is/was alpha/beta access.

I did read it, and from the start there was no mention of the Mustang or Dora being included (rights owned by ED) nor 3 free RRG planes (Bf.109, Spitfire, P-47). Only later there was talk of the 3 RRG planes being included for free, a decision I think of as unfair and should be revised in the light of generating more KickStarter funds and fairness toward the "$40 and up pledgers" (the vast majority here) and future buyers of the game.

MACADEMIC 09-30-2013 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hans-Joachim Marseille (Post 1890642)
I did read it, and from the start there was no mention of the Mustang or Dora being included (rights owned by ED) nor 3 free RRG planes (Bf.109, Spitfire, P-47). Only later there was talk of the 3 RRG planes being included for free, a decision I think of as unfair and should be revised in the light of generating more KickStarter funds and fairness toward the "$40 and up pledgers" (the vast majority here) and future buyers of the game.

Sorry HJM you're not correct there. The three free aircraft together with the free game were in the kickstarter description from the beginning. This hasn't changed but now maybe it will.

MAC

NineLine 09-30-2013 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MACADEMIC (Post 1890649)
Sorry HJM you're not correct there. The three free aircraft together with the free game were in the kickstarter description from the beginning. This hasn't changed but now maybe it will.

MAC

I think he means that it wasnt clear, and that common sense spoke to the fact that 3 aircraft at the level of the P-51D wouldnt/coudnt be given away, which was what i thought at the beginning as well...

BabyJail 09-30-2013 02:54 PM

Could not be more obvious whats missing here. I sincerely hope that Ilya recruits a PR/community-manager guy in the near future..

Sharpe 09-30-2013 03:06 PM

messing around with the goals at this time in the KS itsself; isn't that a little risky?

Hans-Joachim Marseille 09-30-2013 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiThSpAwN (Post 1890651)
I think he means that it wasnt clear, and that common sense spoke to the fact that 3 aircraft at the level of the P-51D wouldnt/coudnt be given away, which was what i thought at the beginning as well...

Exactly. Anyway, it's not worth fighting over and more changes will confuse this KickStarter even more (potentially damaging RRG's name), but I'm left with a sour taste and will probably leave my initial pledge at $100 instead of raising it for the final push.

NineLine 09-30-2013 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharpe (Post 1890678)
messing around with the goals at this time in the KS itsself; isn't that a little risky?


I think so... at this point the bed is made.

He'd be better off starting smaller KSers later on for individual modules....

TimeKilla 09-30-2013 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Havner (Post 1890596)
Don't you guys read the description of a project you supposedly took part in? It was stated explicitly that 3 planes will be free. So if $0 gets you them $1 gets you them as well.

I feel sorry for anyone who pledged $1 to just help out or because they don't have the money with some folks views towards them

Diabolus 09-30-2013 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiThSpAwN (Post 1890685)
I think so... at this point the bed is made.

He'd be better off starting smaller KSers later on for individual modules....

I totally agree! Let's see a high quality basic platform and as Sith states add the other layers later with smaller Kstarters. They would also, in all probability, have some income from sales to contribute to development too. Proof of the pudding maybe?

HornedGod 09-30-2013 04:11 PM

The most interesting tidbit that has been alluded to is the learning curve issue. I think this could be a major unique selling point of this project. If you have concrete ideas on how the learning how to fly a WWII combat aircraft can be made fun and engaging for a sustained period of time then I think that should be brought more into focus. The project needs a hook. This is it.

It would certainly be something that could grab the attention of both the press/media and lapsed flight sim fans. People who used to play flight sims (such as those that played them in the 80s/90s and those who’ve tried more recently but gave up because of the brick wall learning curve) I would think would be the next most obvious market to target. Getting their attention is going to require more than just promises of aircraft and fidelity. It needs information on how you can overcome the barriers that exist in current flight sims.

Games are continually evolving. Flight sim games need to do the same. Up till now the drive has always been to make things more realistic and with greater fidelity. I think everyone recognizes that while that has been a worthy endevour it has the side effect of making the genre less and less appealing to a lot of people. Those same people would probably have enjoyed playing flight sims from the early days if that’s all they knew. Everyone used to try out flight sims back in the early days. They were still pretty hard, but they were accessible. How can they be made accessible for modern times?

A new approach needs to be taken. Genres evolve and redefine themselves all the time. Is it time for flight sims to be redefined so that a whole new audience is exposed to them and would be willing to try them out?

I think this sort of approach would have a much better chance of getting much more money from a kickstarter campaign. If training/learning curve has as much focus on helping new people trying out a flight sim for the first time as it does for helping old hands learn new tricks and tactics then you’d still retain the support of the hard core but open up your market to many more. Without attracting the interest of those outside the hard core you’ll never get the kind of money that you were initially hoping for (multiple 100ks).

I don’t know what financing ED is providing or how important the 100k from this kickstarter campaign is but if you can afford to restart the kickstarter I would think that should be a serious option. I’ve been a game developer for 18 years and know that you’re not going to get many chances to do things like this.

The hard core fans who have supported this kickstarter will come back. We need to support every decent flight sim out there to just keep the genre we love alive. What we need from flight sim developers is a vision of how to get more people to love what we love. You can’t just continue to please us. You need to get every gamer to love playing flight sims again. You need to rekindle the success that flight sims had in the 80s and 90s. The best starting place for that is with WWII fighters.

If that’s not possible then I think it’s pretty clear from the comments on your best course of action:
- Restrict the initial planes that are free to non-backers to 1 or 2. You need to generate income right the start and that means you have to offer planes for sale from day 1. Since you can’t produce more aircraft you need to cut the number that you had originally planned to be free down.
- Do a second kickstarter at a later date to fund the B17.

Getting more publicity is the key to getting more backers and money. To do that you need to preach to more than just the converted. It sounds like that was what you were hoping to do from the beginning. Unfortunately, the initial (and existing) pitch (videos and text) is purely aimed at those who already love flight sims and will throw money at them to keep their hobby alive.

If you really want to get a much larger audience then you need to take the lessons learned from the past three weeks, regroup and pitch again. People looking to start companies have to do this all the time. You pitch and pitch and pitch. Refining your pitch as you go. IF a larger audience is your goal you need to tell them why they should back a genre that seems hard and alien to them. You need to redefine what it means to learn to fly in a flight sim. You need to crystalize that vision and then sell it. The media will report and follow things that are new. To get them on board you have to show that what cool new stuff you’re bringing to flight sims. Media exposure will be key to getting new eyeballs to check out the kickstarter.

This kickstarter has been a success. Up to a point. But if it’s hasn’t been enough to fulfill the real goal you have for this project (which reading between the lines it hasn’t) AND you have the backing to hit the reset switch and take another month to rebrand the project then you should. It’s okay to make mistakes. They’re only bad if you don’t learn anything from them. Ilya, if your passion is to get more people to love what you (and I and everyone that has backed so far) love then do over.


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