Questions regarding the FM

[Hummingbird]

The beauty of many of the jets in DCS, and the reason they fly so close to reality, is in large part due to official EM charts being available to the developers. Hence I was wondering how the EF2000 will be taking on here?

 

In other words: Will it be purely calculated? Or will you have official EM charts to follow?

[shagrat]

The beauty of many of the jets in DCS, and the reason they fly so close to reality, is in large part due to official EM charts being available to the developers. Hence I was wondering how the EF2000 will be taking on here?

 

In other words: Will it be purely calculated? Or will you have official EM charts to follow?

Most likely the guys that flew the Typhoon for years, like the CEO of True Grit, will give a LOT of input, from their experience, where calculations and EM charts can't do just the theory... just saying.

[hi41000]

The beauty of many of the jets in DCS, and the reason they fly so close to reality, is in large part due to official EM charts being available to the developers. Hence I was wondering how the EF2000 will be taking on here?

 

In other words: Will it be purely calculated? Or will you have official EM charts to follow?

most likely will be calculated, although with the CEO being a EF pilot like what shagrat said will be massively helpful to having a accurate pretty close flight model, although with a partnership with the EF team in Germany they might be able to get their hands on a EM chart whilst we can not

[TrueGrit2]

most likely will be calculated, although with the CEO being a EF pilot like what shagrat said will be massively helpful to having a accurate pretty close flight model, although with a partnership with the EF team in Germany they might be able to get their hands on a EM chart whilst we can not

 

 

The EM diagramms are classified, but it will be very very very close to them.

So, we will present the BFM-Beast, the Typhoon really is ;)

[HDpilot]

The EM diagramms are classified, but it will be very very very close to them.

So, we will present the BFM-Beast, the Typhoon really is ;)

 

From the DCS bfm point of view:

what sustained g load on a horizontal turn we can expect from a "clean" DCS-EF at sealevel, standart atmosphere and 50% fuel?

[Hummingbird]

From the DCS bfm point of view:

what sustained g load on a horizontal turn we can expect from a "clean" DCS-EF at sealevel, standart atmosphere and 50% fuel?

 

 

What we know:

 

- Very low wing loading

- Very high thrust to weight ratio

- Delta canard configuration

- Large LE slats

 

In addition the EF can generate G-onset rates of over 10 G's pr. sec, so it will most certainly not be lacking in pitch agility.

 

Links:

https://www.flightglobal.com/eurofighter-typhoon-special-storm-force-

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/united-kingdom/news/thales-high-g-training-fit-modern-aircraft-pilots

https://i.imgur.com/D8kTivq.png

 

 

(!!)Full disclaimer(!!): The below are educated guesses, nothing more!

 

 

In terms of instantaneous and sustained rate / load factor at the configuration you mentioned, based on the wing loading, large LE devices, carnard setup & very high thrust to weight ratio I'd predict instantanous rates in the order of ~28-30 deg/sec and sustained rates of ~24-26 deg/sec.

Edited August 14, 2020 by Hummingbird

[Buzzles]

The EM diagramms are classified, but it will be very very very close to them.

So, we will present the BFM-Beast, the Typhoon really is ;)

So you'll be making it up then? Or is that a "they're classified but we do have access, just obviously can't share"?

[shagrat]

So you'll be making it up then? Or is that a "they're classified but we do have access, just obviously can't share"?

More like they flew the real plane for decades and know even more than the charts will tell you, but obviously need to nerf some of the classified details...

[QuiGon]

So you'll be making it up then? Or is that a "they're classified but we do have access, just obviously can't share"?

The head of TrueGrit was a Eurofighter instructor pilot IRL. I think he has some idea how the aircraft flys and had access to diagramms ;)

[Buzzles]

Oh, I get that. I don't doubt their personal experience in flying it.

 

But personal experience begets bias, and also the simple human factor of misremembering or simply not being accurate with our senses.

There's enough posts on the other dev sections quoting a pilot saying one thing, another pilot saying another, charts say something inbetween etc... and other various other similar things.

 

The amount of posts on this forum that get shut down with "show the hard data please" as responses to posts that have started with "I feel the FM is wrong doing x" is telling as to why people aren't the source of truth, so I'm suprised you lot, especially two long term posters, are fine with TrueGrit potentially doing it on feel.

 

If they have access to the data, great, there's not a problem. That's the question I was asking.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Buzzles

[Wizard_03]

Oh, I get that. I don't doubt their personal experience in flying it.

 

But personal experience begets bias, and also the simple human factor of misremembering or simply not being accurate with our senses.

There's enough posts on the other dev sections quoting a pilot saying one thing, another pilot saying another, charts say something inbetween etc... and other various other similar things.

 

The amount of posts on this forum that get shut down with "show the hard data please" as responses to posts that have started with "I feel the FM is wrong doing x" is telling as to why people aren't the source of truth, so I'm suprised you lot, especially two long term posters, are fine with TrueGrit potentially doing it on feel.

 

If they have access to the data, great, there's not a problem. That's the question I was asking.

 

 

From the announcement newsletter:

 

 

"The TrueGrit development team is led by Gero Finke, a highly experienced former Typhoon Instructor Pilot with 15 years experience on type and an additional 10 years as a weapons instructor on the mighty F-4 Phantom – a total of 3’000 hours of military jet flying. Gero was station commander at one of the world’s most famous fighter bases of all time, the 71st Tactical Fighter Wing at Wittmundhaven, Germany, formally known as the Red Baron´s legendary “Jagdgeschwader Richthofen” and Squadron Commander at Jagdgeschwader 73, Steinhoff. Today, Gero’s dev team has substantial programming and design experience. This professionalism combined with Gero’s exceptional active-duty and operational knowledge is very promising for DCS and the future of this exciting new module."

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4259999&postcount=246

 

 

Gero seems pretty reliable and credible IMO. 100 percent he's seen the charts, and I think he has the authority to say whats correct or incorrect behavior for the module.

[shagrat]

Oh, I get that. I don't doubt their personal experience in flying it.

 

But personal experience begets bias, and also the simple human factor of misremembering or simply not being accurate with our senses.

There's enough posts on the other dev sections quoting a pilot saying one thing, another pilot saying another, charts say something inbetween etc... and other various other similar things.

 

The amount of posts on this forum that get shut down with "show the hard data please" as responses to posts that have started with "I feel the FM is wrong doing x" is telling as to why people aren't the source of truth, so I'm suprised you lot, especially two long term posters, are fine with TrueGrit potentially doing it on feel.

 

If they have access to the data, great, there's not a problem. That's the question I was asking.

... don't forget the dozens of experienced simflyers that never flew any jet, but sure know exactly how the FM of a plane "should" be modeled and feel. ;)

Kidding aside, the reality of developing a true-to-life FM is, that in addition to the raw data, you need actual SMEs who flew the thing. The charts, the wind tunnel data and what not can never represent what the plane actually does when you fly it close to it's limits.

Just taking a look back at how good old lookup tables for "top notch" flight models were faithfully created from these charts and the numbers matched them... I am sure TrueGrit has more than enough access to the relevant data and decades of combined experience with the actual plane. So either you take it that it will be the closest to what the real thing is, or you need to wait another 20 to 30 years to get another try when ALL the data is declassified.

I am definitely looking forward to this neat little plane... childhood memories come to life.

[Buzzles]

... don't forget the dozens of experienced simflyers that never flew any jet, but sure know exactly how the FM of a plane "should" be modeled and feel. ;)

Kidding aside, the reality of developing a true-to-life FM is, that in addition to the raw data, you need actual SMEs who flew the thing. The charts, the wind tunnel data and what not can never represent what the plane actually does when you fly it close to it's limits.

Just taking a look back at how good old lookup tables for "top notch" flight models were faithfully created from these charts and the numbers matched them... I am sure TrueGrit has more than enough access to the relevant data and decades of combined experience with the actual plane. So either you take it that it will be the closest to what the real thing is, or you need to wait another 20 to 30 years to get another try when ALL the data is declassified.

I am definitely looking forward to this neat little plane... childhood memories come to life.

I already know all of that, but you've also reinforced my point by pointing out you need both, data and SME's.

 

I totally acknowledge they'll be no way to for us verify it, but even then I'm not letting my wishes for a new cool aircraft outweigh my skepticism over its accuracy. No-one wants fantasy modules, right?

 

So again, re-read my actual question, as I was asking for confirmation they have access to the correct data, considering by their own admissions, said data is classified. I am not asking for access, to be doubly clear.

[Wizard_03]

If they have the perf charts, they can't say. But based on their SMEs qualifications highly doubt they don't. ED wouldn't give them licenses without them believing they have enough data for the "DCS:" title, and that pretty much requires charts and data.

 

Hornets charts are classified too. 100 percent ED has them.

 

End of the day though accuracy is subjective. For the purpose of DCS it'll be pretty accurate but DCS is a commercial product so it's not going to ever be a 1 to 1 replication especially in terms of FM and systems. But none of us are going to be able tell with any authority how close it is. It's just going to be representation.

[Etirion]

Keep in mind that even the military sims are also never 100% accurate, because real life is always just a little bit more random. With truegrits resume I dont doubt that it'll be the most realistic eurofighter sim thats available.

[shagrat]

End of the day though accuracy is subjective. For the purpose of DCS it'll be pretty accurate but DCS is a commercial product so it's not going to ever be a 1 to 1 replication especially in terms of FM and systems. But none of us are going to be able tell with any authority how close it is. It's just going to be representation.

Pretty much this. And assuming they have the charts or even better access to the original wind tunnel simulations or what not, we will never know how much they are required to nerf or aren't allowed to detail... yet, only the couple dozen real-life Typhoon pilots that actually flew the real plane, will be able to tell. As for the rest of us it will be "the closest to the real plane" anyway...

That's why I pointed out the SMEs. The pilot feedback will ensure the handling and FM "feels" as close as possible to the real thing.

[Hummingbird]

If they have the perf charts, they can't say. But based on their SMEs qualifications highly doubt they don't. ED wouldn't give them licenses without them believing they have enough data for the "DCS:" title, and that pretty much requires charts and data.

 

Hornets charts are classified too. 100 percent ED has them.

 

End of the day though accuracy is subjective. For the purpose of DCS it'll be pretty accurate but DCS is a commercial product so it's not going to ever be a 1 to 1 replication especially in terms of FM and systems. But none of us are going to be able tell with any authority how close it is. It's just going to be representation.

 

Performance we can actually tell wether is close or not with authority when we have the official performance charts for the real aircraft available, which we do for most of the jets in DCS.

 

Hence why we're anxious to know wether or not atleast the TG devs have access to the ones for the EF, as we don't ourselves and want to be sure the sim is accurate - which is the whole reason why most play this sim and not just a random flying game.

[jasonbirder]

I can't decide if the OP is gearing himself up in advance to be outraged at how "OP" the Eurofighter is...or disgusted that its been "nerfed"

:)

 

Given that a) nobody here really knows about the Eurofighters FM and b) the module is light years away...not much more than a skeleton and a few 3D models at the moment...

[Wizard_03]

Performance we can actually tell wether is close or not with authority when we have the official performance charts for the real aircraft available, which we do for most of the jets in DCS.

 

Hence why we're anxious to know wether or not atleast the TG devs have access to the ones for the EF, as we don't ourselves and want to be sure the sim is accurate - which is the whole reason why most play this sim and not just a random flying game.

 

You won't for this one, it's under lock and key just like the hornet. Anyone that has them can't say they have them, and anyone who has seen them can't say they've seen them.

 

That said I find it hard to believe an instructor level pilot wouldn't, either have access too them, or know them by heart. Hence I think Gero's creditability is pretty high. But assuming they do have them, it’s even possible they might be required to willfully make the jet not match them perfectly, to preserve security. According to wags that was done with some of EDs products. So as far as we’re concerned the fidelity is what it is for a frontline active jet, put in a publicly available simulator.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Wizard_03
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[Terrorban]

Like most of the jets modelled in DCS. This will be mostly based on guesswork. Even the ones like F16 and F18 are not that near to their real counterparts. If you follow real life fighter pilots who played DCS, you will understand.

 

That being said, this jet will still be the most realistic version we will see in a very long time on any game or simulator if ever.

 

Just because documents are available, it does not mean the DCS engine can represent them with 100% accuracy.

[OnlyforDCS]

how much they are required to nerf or aren't allowed to detail...

 

Classification status has nothing to do with flight model accuracy. You don't "nerf" your flight model if you don't have access to the data, you try to make it as accurate as possible with what you have. No secret service agents are going to knock on your doors if you get it 100% right, thats just not how these things work.

 

It's exactly the opposite of classified systems modeling, where if a system or a certain part of the system is classified then that part is simply disabled or removed. You can't disable or remove a part of an FM, as that would probably break the entire FM.

Edited August 19, 2020 by OnlyforDCS

[shagrat]

I am pretty sure I read something about wind tunnel data and exact performance (thrust etc.) data, that was not publicly available quite some time ago. Not sure if you can still extrapolate the details, or if you are required to maybe "adjust" the data a bit? That's what I meant by "nerfing". I have never negotiated with the military or military contractors, but know that on the normal Industry one way to showcase new tech without compromising your IP is to have certain details removed from performance data or otherwise make it harder to reverse engineer without the real data.

[OnlyforDCS]

but know that on the normal Industry one way to showcase new tech without compromising your IP is to have certain details removed from performance data or otherwise make it harder to reverse engineer without the real data.

 

This could very well be the case here. But they would still have to "fill in the blanks" otherwise the FM would probably be quite broken. This is why SMEs are so important.

[shagrat]

This is why SMEs are so important.

 

That was my point exactly. The SMEs will assure that it feels/handles "right", as the raw data can only provide so much... and they seem to have very knowledgeable SMEs. ;)

[Terrorban]

Pretty sure every SME is very knowledgeable. That is their whole purpose.