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    #41
    Originally posted by RAZBAM_ELMO View Post
    We could ask that, but we can't release that footage under contract. The devs get ALOT of information from our SMEs on functions and when the SMEs play the game to test things out trust me when I say there is not a single case where they don't find a tweak that needs to be made. I would love to take people at their word but because I cannot confirm the legitimacy of the information they are providing then RAZBAM cannot trust that this information is correct. Im not trying to come off as rude or stark but I'm just trying to be a matter of fact with things. Just because something should be a certain way or someone thinks it needs to be for ease of use does not mean that is how it works or how it is. The general thought and employment for some weapons is taken from some open sources but even the SMEs can't divulge tactics to us despite the NDAs and military contracts. We try to limit interpreting and guesstimating as much info as possible and work with 1st hand knowledge and feedback from verified sources.

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    There are people here with background in the industry or the Air Force. And like Razbam they may not be allowed to release evidence on the open just to make a point.
    And there are a bunch of Dassault fighters from the 80'-90' that are using the same system.

    Like I said: since EC 2/5 involvement, they tweaked some systems, but not everything, far from it.
    CCPI and high drag bombs are a thing of the past. It's fun for us to play with, but the last time they used it in action was probably 1991, and the video of 1999 was just for the show.
    Back then, the Mirage 2000-5F just got declared operational, and Mirage 2000C was still mainly into the AA business.

    When Mirage 2000C was re-focused to "gun slinger" in AG alongside Mirage 2000D, we saw them with Mk-82 and GBU-12 = CCPL to avoid small arm arms fire.
    So I would totally understand that "BF" bomb mode was not high on the priority list for AdA.

    You are dismissing the case on the the assumption that it's according to specs as it is.
    We are just asking you to check with your SME.
    You don't have to take all that we say for granted, just note into the things to check with the guys of EC 2/5 please.
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      #42
      Originally posted by jojo View Post
      There are people here with background in the industry or the Air Force. And like Razbam they may not be allowed to release evidence on the open just to make a point.

      And there are a bunch of Dassault fighters from the 80'-90' that are using the same system.



      Like I said: since EC 2/5 involvement, they tweaked some systems, but not everything, far from it.

      CCPI and high drag bombs are a thing of the past. It's fun for us to play with, but the last time they used it in action was probably 1991, and the video of 1999 was just for the show.

      Back then, the Mirage 2000-5F just got declared operational, and Mirage 2000C was still mainly into the AA business.



      When Mirage 2000C was re-focused to "gun slinger" in AG alongside Mirage 2000D, we saw them with Mk-82 and GBU-12 = CCPL to avoid small arm arms fire.

      So I would totally understand that "BF" bomb mode was not high on the priority list for AdA.



      You are dismissing the case on the the assumption that it's according to specs as it is.

      We are just asking you to check with your SME.

      You don't have to take all that we say for granted, just note into the things to check with the guys of EC 2/5 please.
      I am by no means dismissing the case nor am I ignoring it. I did ask the SME and am awaiting his response. However at this time with the information available and provided it cannot be considered a major or gamebreaking bug requiring the attention of the dev team, more like a side note to be addressed at a later time. I'm in the process of testing the theory that computing a point of impact in 3D space using a 2D logic in level flight will produce the long misses described using various aircraft from A10s to F18s and F16s. So far its all showing the same results, relative movement of the aircraft on the ground is greater than that in a dive therefore trying to aim at target always produces a miss because the impact point in 2D space is past or beyond the target due to the delay in releasing the munition.

      This is mater of fact and a CCIP drop with the HUD cannot compensate for the presence of a 3D target. Given the results I've seen, that is what prompted me to move this to resolved and labeling it as user error. During the tests we had individuals use the center of the pipper to get the long shots then compensating on successive runs by aiming in front of the target space which produced wither a hit or within a 5m radius of accuracy depending on individuals. In a dive it was the center and everyone hit within 5m.

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        #43
        Originally posted by RAZBAM_ELMO View Post
        So far its all showing the same results, relative movement of the aircraft on the ground is greater than that in a dive therefore trying to aim at target always produces a miss because the impact point in 2D space is past or beyond the target due to the delay in releasing the munition.
        I think, I understand your explanation, but I am not convinced that this is unavoidable. The different speeds over ground - isn't that something the CCIP logic should take into account? I mean, isn't exactly that what the C for Computing stands for in CCIP?

        Originally posted by RAZBAM_ELMO View Post
        (...) trying to aim at target always produces a miss because the impact point in 2D space is past or beyond the target due to the delay in releasing the munition.
        This seems a bit more plausible to me, but still, the delay between pressing weapon release and the actual separation of the weapon from the airframe - these are known parameters that CCIP should be able to take into account as well.
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          #44
          Just so there no confusion or thinking this is a Mirage issue, testing this over other airframes like the A10, F18, F-16, JF-17 and Harrier, the behaviour is the same across all the platforms.

          So that means that it is down to the user to practice and follow bombing tables. If you are curious to know what these may look like then you can have a look at the declassified bombing tables for the F-5 which should give you a rough estimation for what speed, and altitude you should be bombing at.
          Know and use all the capabilities in your airplane. If you don't, sooner or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass.

          — Dave 'Preacher' Pace, USN.

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            #45
            Originally posted by RAZBAM_ELMO View Post
            Just so there no confusion or thinking this is a Mirage issue, testing this over other airframes like the A10, F18, F-16, JF-17 and Harrier, the behaviour is the same across all the platforms.

            So that means that it is down to the user to practice and follow bombing tables. If you are curious to know what these may look like then you can have a look at the declassified bombing tables for the F-5 which should give you a rough estimation for what speed, and altitude you should be bombing at.
            No, that just means that none of this module cared to include release delay in the CCIP targeting.
            So far, trying to aim with the centre of the CCIP cue, at 500kt and around 300ft I get consistently around 200ft miss distance. Since it's repeatable, it's accurate.

            F-5E doesn't have CCIP.

            I will try to make a proper testing video in the coming days.
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              #46
              Originally posted by jojo View Post
              No, that just means that none of this module cared to include release delay in the CCIP targeting.

              So far, trying to aim with the centre of the CCIP cue, at 500kt and around 300ft I get consistently around 200ft miss distance. Since it's repeatable, it's accurate.



              F-5E doesn't have CCIP.



              I will try to make a proper testing video in the coming days.
              I explore you to review the F5 bombing tables for the Snakeyes. It does not have a CCIP "mode" because its all dropped by referencing bombing tables.

              You can do your tests to confirm for yourself but I spent the better part of the night before, the day yesterday and last night trying this out with modules I own and having testers use those which I dont. Its the same results between all aircraft and bringing this evidence to the dev team.

              The SME's input from the Harrier and the Mirage on use of snakeeyes at level low altitudes is why use a single or pair of bombs to hit a single target. That is not what the attack method is designed for. Its for large area targets and columns of vehicles or a strip of road. So this will remain a USER ERROR.

              Adjusting the pipper would make other forms of bombing inaccurate. Decreasing the time from button press to weapon release would be inaccurate. Therefore it will remain as is.

              Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk
              Know and use all the capabilities in your airplane. If you don't, sooner or later, some guy who does use them all will kick your ass.

              — Dave 'Preacher' Pace, USN.

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