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    AV-8BNA is feature complete according to Razbam

    I have to write my own seperate complaint to Razbam and Eagle Dynamics about Early Access because of a minority of people who used the forum to practice their spelling of 'grown up words'. I wanted to express customer opinion, but I don't neccessarily want to be part of posts that go nasty and begin swearing. There's no need for it, there are enough issues with the cold facts.
    What I take issue with is the usage or terms and wording in the product sales lifespan, specifically "Release", "Early Access", "Feature Complete".

    These phrases have become an absolute NONSENSE, to the point they are utterly meaningless and I find I cannot trust any wording, which impacts my trust of the "Early Access model" of selling things - or to be precise, paying for something singificantly (years) before it arrives.

    If all a 3rd party is required to do, is make something that flies in DCS and limit the promised features to a WHITE LIST, then Early Access is dead.

    What sane person wants to enter into a trust agreement where no one can rightly say what the deal is on the table? I'm going to make a thing. It has things in it, it might have more or less things than I originally say. It might adhgere to a list, it might not. Give me money and you can have some things and I'll work it out later what they are.

    White listing features is unworkable. Refer to the product description page: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.c...odules/av8bna/
    Perform a search for "Dual Mode Tracker" or DMT. What did you find? Does this mean it is not a 'key' feature? Or just not a 'listed' feature? Or is it not a feature at all? What about FLIR? Not listed as a feature, its only in the blurb at the top of what the aircraft has, not the product feature list. So... two of the biggest features of a Night Attack Harrier are not features you could expect to find in the product. Really?

    Are all the features of the AV-8B module listed on the product page? No. Additionally that would be silly, so here we go, we are about to enter a blind agreement...

    Do we expect, as customers, that the entire plane is modelled within in a fairly close approximation, and every feature does not have to be listed specifically? Yes, yes I do expect everything from a plane to appear in the simulated version. If it's not possible, it has to be called out. Now case in point, these features that werent modelled like hotspot tracker WERE ALREADY discussed, and credit due - if its not up in the air, its at least acknowledged. But MGRS, Loft bombing, TAMMAC overlays, IFF, keybinds, UFC non functioning buttons, CAS communication, off the top of my head are pretty core to a CAS night attack aircraft in a sim, so why the exclusion in the features planned or otherwise?

    Do we need to specify it has wings?

    No, of course not, that is why the wording on the feature page uses the following weasel word format:

    "Key Features of DCS: AV-8B N/A VTOL by RAZBAM include:"

    (and are not limited to) <-- this is implied and missing.

    Now, as a comparison, the fact that ECS is mentioned but not LOFT bombing or MGRS input, brings this entire trust relationship into question. Especially when mentioning the ECS, a cockpit heater, and its part in a simulation, is irrelevant and I would argue, not a feature, compared to a listed feature: Head-Up Display (HUD) or an unmentioned feature: ARBS. Yes, the feature list is rubbish, it's irrelevant, it's nothing relating to promises or commitment. It's pointless and now, it's even misleading!

    We are being asked to look at the feature list as an argument in support of feature complete, by the developers! Hold on to that thought a while...

    What can we then expect, as customers, with this product?

    The short answer is: Parity to the existing modules. A-10C and Blackshark set the yardstick by which others are measured. Typically ED build upon that and are adding deeper features where possible, all the time. We can and should compare one module to the first, where features are listed.

    But A-10C doesnt list any features?
    That's why we end up with the assumption on detail where AV-8B is concerned!

    But JF-17 lists features but TWS mode is not on them and that's almost vital to A-A modern combat?
    That's why we end up with the assumption on detail where AV-8B is concerned!

    The A-10C has loft bombing so why do .... ugh.
    You get the picture.

    Why is the customer at fault for reading a feature of the real plane and finding out

    TWO YEARS LATER

    that said "feature" was NOT going to be modelled at all, when other modules like A-10C have them? Did we make a mistake? According to Razbam, we did.

    pretty much all of it is based on the false presumption that it means the module as being “a done deal”
    Razbam said we made a false assumption. Based on the words "Feature Complete" and the product feature list.

    Do you feel like you made a mistake? I don't. I thought we'd have all of the features available, and where they are unknown, an artistic rendition of the capability put in its place. Like RWR, radar performances, etc.

    How does Early Access actually exist at all if we are going to have this problem of innacurate promises, feature lists and such?

    I cannot, hand on heart, engage in this Early Access business until there is clarity about what should be delivered years down the line. I cannot listen to a busines owner who contradicts himself in his first two lines of a reply.

    "It’s a studied decision from both parties that also involves a high degree of confidence from ED towards (in this particular case) us that we will continue support, bug fixing and adding features even those not mentioned in the description page"

    "Being out of EA means that the module reached a production milestone and it’s that it is feature complete as what has been promised in the product description page, ..."


    What kind of madness is this? is it feature complete or is it not? How can you be any more unclear?!

    Am I the only sane person here that can read?


    - That that the business owner states in adjacent sentences that the product is feature complete and they will still add features to it. Madness.

    - That the product description page is a pointless waste of time because its not accurate or even useful? (but used retrospectively to argue they are compliant with their promises)

    - That referencing such lists and choosing arbitrarily what is in or out is no way to commit years of work and promises to? Well I think so, you may not agree.

    I either surrender the missing Features in my hopes, give them up, or I cannot in all sensibility enter into another EA trust arrangement with Razbam, it is that simple. At no stage have Razbam implicitly stated a specific feature will not be done when asked. By the same token, they never said they will be, either....you see where this is going (apart from the circles).

    Finally, to Razbam, contrition does not imply guilt. It's clear you dont see yourself as any part of the reason of these peoples malcontent. You can use the word "Sorry" without thinking you are to blame and it often helps. Let me demonstrate...

    "I am very sorry you had to listen to my disatisfaction, I do hope you can take some time to listen and understand my complaint, it's made genuinely and would not need much effort to clear up any future misunderstandings, just a little clarity on product details and wording accuracy. My question is, will you add any more features to the Harrier and if so, how do you understand the meaning of 'feature complete' in that context? Will you at least formally respond to the actual question asked; will you look at these missing features from the product, https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=285495 and give a clear yes or no. Thank you."

    You see? I apologised there and sounded sincere. Give it a try. Not now, obviously, but the next time you begin a sentence with "our customers are wrong again".

    I can only make a literal understanding of feature complete, in that its an industry standard terminology for not developing any more new things on a peice of software. Features are quite obviously including new things like loft bombing. Our deduction is that the Harrier, according to Razbam will be left feature INCOMPLETE.

    P.S. to the person on Facebook who said to scrap this work for your F-15E, and to everyone hoping Razbam can finish future modules faster... some of you aren't smart enough to work out that our Harrier today is your F-15E tomorrow.
    ___________________________________________________________________________
    SIMPLE SCENERY SAVING * SIMPLE GROUP SAVING * SIMPLE STATIC SAVING * PLAYLIST

    #2
    Well said. EA works on trust and in this case that trust has been broken.

    Comment


      #3
      Preach on brother. This thread will probably be deleted or locked soon.

      Apparently Razbam need us to talk nice to them and not ask them for missing features or else they will stop talking here again.

      I just want either RAZBAM or any other developer to complete this module and properly simulate its barebone implementations.

      This is the only VTOL jet in this game so for me it holds a lot more value than F-15E, purely because of the versatility.
      Current Hangar : A-10C II ¦ AJS-37 ¦ A/V-8B ¦ F-14A/B ¦ F/A-18C ¦ FC3 ¦ JF-17 ¦ Ka-50 ¦ Mi-8 ¦ M2000-C ¦ SA342 ¦ UH-1H

      Other Modules : Combined Arms ¦ Persian Gulf

      TRAINED - LEARNING - UNTOUCHED - ABANDONED

      Comment


        #4
        Yes, thanks for taking the time to write this message, the problem really shows when we compare different modules and their product pages, the fact that the harrier came out of early access with this product page is quite a big issue (and for the price of the module I'd expect to go much more in depth in all the pages of the mfd's just like the a10c does, if it wouldn't be out of early access I wouldn't mind, for the moment at least).
        Yeah, comparatively in DCS, the harrier isn't what I would call feature complete.
        Full fidelity su27/mig29 ?

        Comment


          #5
          This is the least sensationalist summary of customer confusion and dissatisfaction that I've read so far.

          My biggest concern since the beginning has been the lack of good faith on the part of RAZBAM. I know they are passionate about what they do and take pride in their product, but this has turned into a bigger issue than it started out as, stoked by both their own missteps at just about every corner and some irrelevant customer outrage.

          They either deeply misunderstand or are being intentionally dishonest about 1) why customers are upset, 2) the reasons they aren't modeling certain things, 3) to what extent those systems are or will be modeled considering it is "feature complete," 4) that constructive criticism and requests for truth are not insults or inherently offensive, and 5) the narrative behind their actions these past few weeks.

          They have even attempted to censor me here by claiming (inaccurately) that I was under NDA (which was thankfully rectified quickly). I'm willing to grant them the benefit of the doubt there with Hanlon's Razor, but it is not doing their image any favors.

          I sincerely hope the new CM can address these concerns directly, and in better faith than their predecessor or Prowler. I'd like to see them, and a better Harrier, come out the other side of this.
          "It is also true that we parted ways with Chicken after some disagreements."

          Comment


            #6
            @Pikey you are not the only sane person, couldn't agree more i have said the exact same thing on numerous occasions, even prior to this blowing up last week. I'm still trying to confirm a date when the module was put into release version but that's also mission impossible.

            Early Access is about trust, not necessarily time taken to complete and over the last 2 years Razbam have consistently ignored their customers and been strangely rude at times resulting in a serious fracture of this relationship. Some of the communique released by Razbam right upto the CEO has been nothing short of jaw dropping.

            I have no issue with buying into EA from ED, as i have confidence and trust that despite their stumbling blocks that they will encounter at some stage they will bring the project to a satisfactory fruition, just like the A10C / Blackshark. This also goes for Heatblur and Deka who have communicated well and without hesitation i would buy from them tomorrow, especially Deka new to the scene to support them. There workrate on bug fixing for a new module was spectacular and a credit to the whole team.

            I see less experienced players all preaching for the F15 also, it's painful to watch and short sighted.

            It's a probably fair assumption at this state that Razbam customer retention amongst the more mature and serious players is also dead in the water. Any company that has censorship and ignorance of its customers at its core you just know things are not going to end well.

            I think many had given them another chance after the PR and performance disasters over a year ago, for many it was the last chance.
            Last edited 09-16-2020, 05:19 PM.
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              #7
              Originally posted by Pikey View Post
              ... because of a minority of people who used the forum to practice their spelling of 'grown up words'.
              There's something wrong with this place anyway, where people that just hold on their criticism and don't fall into an endlessly grateful submissive attitude every time they do, being denounced as toxic, hateful and badly behaved people. That someone used such words in the whole discussion of the last week was extremely rare.

              Comment


                #8
                Another wall of text.
                Do you really think that it will add value today.

                At least give RB the opportunity to catch their breath after their existing statement.
                System: 9700, 64GB DDR4, 2070S, NVME2, Rift S, Jetseat, Thrustmaster F18 grip, VPC T50 stick base and throttle, CH Throttle, MFG crosswinds, custom button box, Logitech G502 and Marble mouse.
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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Mr_sukebe View Post
                  At least give RB the opportunity to catch their breath after their existing statement.
                  Which statement?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    +1 Pikey

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by epoch View Post
                      Which statement?

                      This one I imagine https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=285904

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I was meaning to write a statement like this, but couldn't have done it better.

                        To have a communication from the developer that states the Av8b as feature complete and then in the next sentence to state there are still features to do feels like 2+2=5.

                        Also years ago when EA was introduced to DCS I was under the impression that there was some quality control by ED but this doesn't appear to be the case.

                        Like many others for me the solution is simple, withhold further purchases until the EA situation is improved. This is not to say I don't want to participate in a sensible EA program, having enjoyed modules and submitted bug reports, but it needs to be better defined w.r.t timescales and exit criteria from EA. Also bugs should not exist for years. I feel like community trust has eroded rapidly over this issue.
                        Core i5 6600k@4.2Ghz | 32gb DDR4 3200Mhz | MSI 2070 Gaming Z | 500Gb OS SSD + 1TB Gaming SSD | Asus VG27AQ | Trackhat clip | Thrustmaster Warthog

                        F14 | F16 | AJS37 | F5 | Av8b | FC3 | Mig21 | FW190D9 | Huey

                        Been playing DCS from Flanker 2.0 to present

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Glad to see you made it to the party. I noticed your absence.



                          and I couldn't agree more.
                          Flying the Harrier
                          IYAOYAS

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Yeah +1 for Pikey and Hawkeye.

                            I mean its the crux of the matter.

                            If the harrier is out of EA with stuff missing, or poorly modeled like the ARBS, or VREST page or any number of other systems, what real hope is that Raz will actually fix it. I mean "product sustainment" is a fine thing to say but its a meaningless statement, much like EA has turned out to be. I mean the definition of these terms increasingly a core problem for ED and 3rd parties.

                            But IMO really the harrier has largely felt abandoned in terms of stuff added for the 2+ years I've owned it. And while stuff has been added in fits and spurts, its been painfully slow, painfully buggy. And now I supposed to believe that its out of EA and feature complete that this will somehow get better?

                            I mean the tagline has been EA isn't for everyone. Well now we've all been there and done that. And what, now I'm supposed to believe the same module, with the same problems and missing stuff for years is now somehow "complete" because a page description has changed and will be "worked-on" with an improved level of dedication now that its "done". I mean there is a rather iconic quote from the movie "the outlaw Joesy wales" that applies here, but I won't sully Pikeys thread with it, but it relates to rain.
                            Last edited 09-17-2020, 03:11 AM.
                            New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1)
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                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Harlikwin View Post
                              Yeah +1 for Pikey and Hawkeye.

                              I mean its the crux of the matter.

                              If the harrier is out of EA with stuff missing, or poorly modeled like the ARBS, or VREST page or any number of other systems, what real hope is that Raz will actually fix it. I mean "product sustainment" is a fine thing to say but its a meaningless statement, much like EA has turned out to be. I mean the definition of these terms increasingly a core problem for ED and 3rd parties.

                              But IMO really the harrier has largely felt abandoned in terms of stuff added for the 2+ years I've owned it. And while stuff has been added in fits and spurts, its been painfully slow, painfully buggy. And now I supposed to believe that its out of EA and feature complete that this will somehow get better?

                              I mean the tagline has been EA isn't for everyone. Well now we've all been there and done that. And what, now I'm supposed to believe the same module, with the same problems and missing stuff for years is now somehow "complete" because a page description has changed and will be "worked-on" with an improved level of dedication now that its "done". I mean there is a rather iconic quote from the movie "the outlaw Joesy wales" that applies here, but I won't sully Pikeys thread with it, but it relates to rain.
                              Totally agree. How is such a small team going to support 3 existing modules, with the AV8 needing multiple features to be added, and push two more new and complex modules out in the very near future while supporting them as well? In my opinion I just don't see much changing with the AV8 other than the bug fixes already mentioned. Its in product sustainment so I am guessing based on past performance they will get to things outside of bugs when and if they see fit. The AV-8 is done it is what it is and we will just have to live with it until RAZBAM chooses to finish it whenever that maybe. I will say I am happy that DCS has moved towards naval air so I have absolutely no interest in the F-15E or Mig-23. I will however closely monitor the roll out of these on the forums for purely entertainment purposes.

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Mr_sukebe View Post
                                Another wall of text.
                                Do you really think that it will add value today.

                                At least give RB the opportunity to catch their breath after their existing statement.
                                I can only try. Although measuring Razbam's reaction time in days is a little generous.
                                I am asking very seriously for
                                - Accurate product descriptions in order to avoid customer disappointment
                                - Realistic approaches to what "Feature Complete" actually means - given that the feature list is useless (I've explained why with data in the OP)
                                - The remaining features on the AV-8B that Razbam have not said they would add, and, more importantly have impliend they will not by stating feature complete.

                                I'm not asking for anything unreasonable and sometimes folks are so tired and frustrated, they end up distracting moderators from helping us find bugs.

                                Why should we not ask for this? Maybe it's OK for you (and others) to accept shortfalls. The more we are satisfied with large parts missing of a module, the less others are encouraged to make good on their EA ventures. I dont want to encourage missing things or being vague or disappointing others. And since it affects many people who are interested in this, it's worth saying here as it was on Reddit.https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comm...mplete_razbam/


                                I'm OK with EA! I'm OK with long waits. But the goals are set in stone for me. As long as I get an aircraft that is not missing features. I want to trust, I want all the nice things, but I cannot. And whilst we have people that say


                                Give me the mudhen early, I'll take the growing pains with it.
                                https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comm...eb2x&context=3


                                then we have developers rubbing their hands with glee and the status quo remains and we are all doomed.
                                ___________________________________________________________________________
                                SIMPLE SCENERY SAVING * SIMPLE GROUP SAVING * SIMPLE STATIC SAVING * PLAYLIST

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Very well written Pikey! For me the trust is completely gone.
                                  Originally posted by Pikey View Post
                                  P.S. to the person on Facebook who said to scrap this work for your F-15E, and to everyone hoping Razbam can finish future modules faster... some of you aren't smart enough to work out that our Harrier today is your F-15E tomorrow.
                                  This is exactly how Razbam's (& ED's) business model looks now & how it will end up, given their long airplane list.
                                  i7 8700k@4.7, 1080ti, DDR4 32GB, 2x SSD , HD 2TB, W10, ASUS 27", TrackIr5, TMWH, X-56, GProR.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Yea I don't know why they refuse to talk about this, unless the reality is, they have NO plan at all.

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Mr_sukebe View Post
                                      Another wall of text.
                                      Do you really think that it will add value today.

                                      At least give RB the opportunity to catch their breath after their existing statement.
                                      You mean the statement where they completely ignored everything the community asked them, and said it's basically our fault for misunderstanding the situation?

                                      That was a total deflection. Pikey's "wall of text" is actually a well constructed criticism, so yeah it does add value. Your post doesn't add any value. It's just another "stop complaining about the product you paid for and accept what Razbam tells you" post.

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Halcyon View Post
                                        You mean the statement where they completely ignored everything the community asked them, and said it's basically our fault for misunderstanding the situation?

                                        That was a total deflection. Pikey's "wall of text" is actually a well constructed criticism, so yeah it does add value. Your post doesn't add any value. It's just another "stop complaining about the product you paid for and accept what Razbam tells you" post.
                                        More or less this, plenty of people have offered constructive criticism in the last week or so since this has happened. And yet we really only got some weird deflection post about shiny SVG grafix. Something literally no one asked about, or cared about. And while we patiently await Elmo's response, I'd be very surprised if he actually addresses Pikeys post, or Anything about the various issues with the ARBS and other missing/broken/magical systems.
                                        New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1)
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