Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

DCS: MiG-23MLA by RAZBAM

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Fri13 View Post
    Nothing is preventing, except the short range radar and powerful emissions to reveal you while you can't see a thing.

    The MiG-29 and Su-27 were first fighters designed to operate standalone if needed. Otherwise the GCI were always in contact and provided valuable information even in dog fights as they could see what enemy is about to do as they could read the enemy energy state and capabilities from the radar screen. For a good GCI operator the radar screen was like a Tacview is to us, they saw and understood situations better as they had all the data from flight plans to SAM network and all fighters on the air. So there was a dozen people helping a fighter pilot to complete their missions, instead of one pilot trying to find a solution to situation that they didn't know.

    The MiG-23 flies with the GCI. By its guidance, its information and it only activates radar when commanded. We do not have even semi-realistic radar modeling in game where you wouldn't even find the target in many cases as it could just be so faint return. Combine with everything else from ECM to CM and you would love a human GCI to guide you silently on the target, activate your radar and you just launch missiles at unaware target that just seconds ago learn that it RWR is telling something just locked on it.

    Think about flying to enemy land and you have just your radar and RWR telling there are a dozen or so EWR, and you are absolutely unaware of dozens of SAM sites, fighters etc all tracking you based to the EWR data, all waiting a some master plan to come together while you just fly deeper the defense to drop your bombs or something, and every second you are driving to your doom.
    This is why the F-16 or F-15 needs their radar to get a glimpse what is ahead of them, missing many targets but same time trying to find out the game plan that defenders has laid out to stop you.

    The difference is big, Soviets designed many systems based defense, while west for the offense. Other will know what is happening in own backyard, while another needs to get in and find it out by "looking through a straw".

    And you would be happy if MiG-23 intercepting you did turn radar On, instead acquiring you with IRST and launch a IR missile without warning.

    Combine it with very high speed interception capability, they can just be guided to get behind you where your radar can't see them.

    This is why MiG-23 (and overall DCS) requires a overhaul of the EW to be implemented in core DCS.
    here you got an u.s. documentary of the "air national guard" operations in alaska (and.. all is controlled by cgi... or iads, even awacs)

    Comment


    • i am thinking where come the idea of "pilos in western aiforces fly alone" (almost like hippies in lollapetoza... searching for a beer or something else... hooo good times all my respects to those hippies) and dont recieve orders from cgi... this idea dont come from the usaf... they make documentaries showing they work, and its like i alwais thinck it is... so where the stupid idea comes?.... from top gun and hollowood movies like this? (at least top gun is an good enterteinment.... iron eagles are just crap, below z category movies), i know were the idea of "soviet pilot were robots stupids and soviet machines are made bla bla bla crap bla bla bla crap bla bla bla propaganda bla bla bla crap" this is just propaganda... but tho other idea its a nonsense spreaded all over internet... but where that come from????

      Comment


      • Originally posted by nsf_zx View Post
        i am thinking where come the idea of "pilos in western aiforces fly alone" (almost like hippies in lollapetoza... searching for a beer or something else... hooo good times all my respects to those hippies) and dont recieve orders from cgi... this idea dont come from the usaf... they make documentaries showing they work, and its like i alwais thinck it is... so where the stupid idea comes?.... from top gun and hollowood movies like this? (at least top gun is an good enterteinment.... iron eagles are just crap, below z category movies), i know were the idea of "soviet pilot were robots stupids and soviet machines are made bla bla bla crap bla bla bla crap bla bla bla propaganda bla bla bla crap" this is just propaganda... but tho other idea its a nonsense spreaded all over internet... but where that come from????
        Probably from the same decade that produced Top Gun. If you look at a lot of films with a militaristic and/or patriotic plot from that era, you'll notice that they're pretty similar, thematically speaking.
        "Everyone has a plan 'till they get punched in the mouth."

        Comment


        • Love the radar talk


          To put it into reality:
          ML/MLA's radar emits 40 kW peak (70kW is for M/MF)
          return cut-off is roughly 10^-9 W (-8 for M) - the cut-off also varies with altitude

          If F-16's radar emits 16kW with only slightly less range, this means it's more sensitive.

          But this more/less sensitive in the end does not matter. What matters is the end result, that being range. Where they are more or less equal, with slight advantage when it comes to the ML.

          But here's the catch - electronic warfare exists. And more powerful radar is always an advantage. Until you get down low, where the radar power becomes a hindrance - because you need to filter out all the noise you get reflecting from the ground. Even then you can find the enemy on N003 with enough time before your missiles get in range.



          As for GCI, it's a situational awareness thing. No, GCI will not be able to tell your enemy's energy state from the radar screen. Nor would the poor guy there be able to communicate to you quickly enough. This is the reason why even the "merge" exists. Did you know radars do not have infinite resolution? At some point, speaking about older radars, the "blips" of you and the target will merge on the screen, to the point where you cannot tell them apart. That is the "merge". More modern radars will still be able to recognize and display two separate targets, but the refresh rate and the spacing (or lack there of) will prevent the GCI from giving you any meaningful inputs.

          As for doctrine, air force pilots (not air defence) would be directed into an area of operations, updated on the threats, and given optimum directions to initiate the combat. This being facilitated either by an integrated command centre, dispersed command centre, or airborne command centre (A-50, Tu-126). Past that it's in the hands of the pilot, who is trained in both BVR and manoeuvre combat. Here just keep in mind that BVR was very simplistic back then, there was no cranking or weaving. At best you would launch your heat seekers and climb away.

          Comment


          • I know I'm very late but is there conclusive proof that the MiG-23MLA was retrofitted with flares in Soviet service or is the one we're receiving a mix?
            Urraaaa!

            Comment


            • There were photos of ML's from Afghanistan and history books mention orders. 50mm flare rounds for Soviet racks and centrline pylon flare launcher. Iraq used 20-something mm helicopter flare rounds.
              i5-10600k/32GB 3600/1060gtx 6gb/1920x1200'24/VPC T-50 Saitek X-52 throttle Saitek combat rudder

              Comment


              • Where is this (what's the source)? Could u show text and photographic proof if possible?
                Last edited by EpicBlitzkrieg87; 09-16-2020, 04:46 PM.
                Urraaaa!

                Comment


                • Originally posted by EpicBlitzkrieg87 View Post
                  Where is this (what's the source)? Could u show text and photographic proof if possible?
                  Book by Victor Markovsky mentions VP-50 installations on ML, MLA, MLD and even UB going to Afghanistan. Unfortunately all clear photos that I've found are MLD's. But multiple MiG-23ML pilots and technicians on many forums and Razbam discord stated that VP-50-60 launcher rack is bolt-on. MiG-29 flare dispensers are also separate bolt-on device and not part of the airframe btw.
                  UPD - there are photos of UB with VP-50, which is technically an MF with dual cockpit. So if can mount it on UB which is like really different from MLD, mounting to ML should be no problem at all.
                  Last edited by Кош; 09-17-2020, 08:15 AM.
                  i5-10600k/32GB 3600/1060gtx 6gb/1920x1200'24/VPC T-50 Saitek X-52 throttle Saitek combat rudder

                  Comment




                  • Picture: Mig-23ML from one of the F-1 onboard camera in that combat, Taken from a Cuban Military magazine.

                    Real Story in Spanish about an unsuccessful ambush made by 3 F-1 against a single Mig-23ML. Angola war:

                    ¡Cuidado, son tres!

                    Artículo de Maikel Mederos Fiallo.

                    El 25 de febrero de 1988, alrededor de las 17:35 horas, el piloto de tercera, capitán Orlando Carbó, cumple una misión de cobertura al sureste de Cuito en el MiG-23ML matrícula 476. Su navegante en tierra, el primer teniente Ricardo López Castillo, le informa de la presencia en la zona de un Mirage F1 sudafricano.
                    – 877, tome rumbo 90 grados. ¡Máxima velocidad!
                    – Enterado, rumbo 90 – respondió con rapidez Carbó.
                    – 77, el objetivo está delante de Ud., distancia 25 km, 30 grados a su izquierda y debajo.
                    La tensión del piloto aumentaba con la creciente velocidad de acercamiento, mientras sus ojos peinaban la pantalla de su radar.
                    – ¿Este radar estará ciego? – pensó el piloto. El velocímetro llegaba a 1 100 km/h. Su mano derecha, sin quejarse, aplicaba mayor fuerza sobre el bastón de mando.
                    – 877, objetivo 5 grados a su izquierda, distancia 12 km…
                    – ¿Qué altura más o menos? – preguntó el piloto.
                    Su voz sonó como un latigazo de decisión que daba confianza al navegante López Castillo quien oprimió de nuevo el micrófono de su equipo e indicó:
                    – 77, busque el objetivo por debajo, aumente la velocidad.
                    No hubo respuesta.
                    – Lo perdí, lo perdí, delante de usted. Búscalo a la izquierda 5 grados.
                    – 877 ¡En captura!... – apareció en su radar el objetivo aéreo.
                    Hasta ese momento habían transcurrido 2 minutos y 29 segundos.
                    – ¡Correcto!
                    – Completamente de frente – dijo el piloto.
                    – Distancia 8 km – indicó el navegante.
                    – ¡Se cayó la captura! – se lamentó el piloto.
                    Interferencias activas nublan la pantalla del radar.
                    – Distancia 7 – el piloto no oyó ni contestó nada.
                    – De frente completamente, 3 km. Búsquelo por debajo. Coge pa´ abajo trancando – se alteró el tono de voz de Castillo.
                    – ¿Pa´ qué rumbo? – preguntó Carbó con desconcierto.
                    – ¡Tranca por la izquierda pa´… curso 280!
                    – 280 grados por la izquierda.
                    Carbó se apresta para entablar combate.
                    – Delante de usted, distancia 9… Distancia 7, es una pareja, delante de usted, ahí abajo – se acercaba con rapidez – De frente completamente. ¡Cuidado que están trancando! ¡Cuidado!, de frente dos… – le pasó por debajo.
                    – ¿Dime?... ¿dime?... ¿dónde?... ¡a la vista, voy pa´ bajo!
                    – ¿Lo tienes? – preguntó Castillo.
                    – Correcto, son dos – respondió Carbó.
                    – Correcto, mete caña, no te dejes coger.
                    Momentáneamente los perdió y Castillo le informó que los tenía detrás. Lanzó el tanque auxiliar de combustible y descendió con brusquedad su altura girando en espiral. El combate se desarrollaba a alturas entre 200 – 1 000 metros.
                    Efectivamente, por encima y por detrás se acercan a alta velocidad dos cazas Mirages F1: el MiG-23 ha caído en una emboscada. El primer avión solitario era un señuelo para atraer a Carbó.
                    Al instante escucha la voz de su navegante que le informa sobresaltado:
                    – ¡Cuidado, son tres, son tres!
                    Un macabro carrusel aéreo se entabla en el cielo: de un lado el MiG-23 secundado desde tierra por López Castillo y del otro las tres máquinas sudafricanas empeñadas en coger la cola del solitario MiG. En pocos instantes se entremezclan la emoción con el aplomo, la valentía con la sagacidad y entre giros y banqueos, trepadas y picadas se oye la voz de Castillo que más que hablar grita:
                    – ¡Dale tú, coño! – Resuena en el intercomunicador del piloto – ¡Métele caña, tienes que tumbarlo! ¡No te dejes coger la cola!...
                    El avión líder enemigo lanzó un cohete desde el ala de su F1. Con un brusco tirón del bastón de mando Carbó evadió el cohete cuando este se encontraba próximo al impacto. El segundo disparo de “Kukri” se efectuó teniendo una diferencia de 30 grados desde la semiesfera frontal, este se desvió de su trayectoria de vuelo e impactó contra tierra. El tercer y último disparo lo recibió desde la semiesfera trasera y sintió sobre la cola de su avión una fuerte sacudida, provocada por la onda expansiva.
                    En tierra de detectarían se detectaron tres pequeñas partículas metálicas que agujerearon los timones con diámetro del tamaño de un centavo.
                    Los minutos pasan a velocidad supersónica y el capitán Carbó amenaza con derribar a uno de sus atacantes. Cambió la posición de sus alas para el ángulo de 72 grados y emprendió la salida del “carrusel de la muerte”. El combate había durado 6 minutos y 15 segundos con el régimen de trabajo del motor al máximo y postcombustión conectada.
                    El piloto Orlando Carbó todavía tiene motivos para seguir preocupado, su avión ha consumido demasiado combustible en el lance aéreo, tiene dudas de que alcance para llegar a la base de Menongue, pero con la misma seguridad con que le indicara en el combate, el navegante López Castillo, tras determinar cálculos para altura y velocidad le dice que se puede llegar a la base y que el aterrizaje será allí.
                    En Menongue todos están a la espera, los ojos buscan un punto que no aparece en el cielo. Ya en las cercanías del aeropuerto, Ricardo López cede la conducción a sus colegas y espera, también con ansiedad la llegada del MiG.
                    – ¡Allí está! – son varias las voces de quienes ven la diminuta figura del avión que se aproxima bajito, arrebatando al tiempo cada metro de un combustible que se acaba y con este la vida del motor. Las ruedas se posan en la dura rampa, el paracaídas de frenado se extiende y ya al final de la carrera, cuando el avión va a girar en 180 grados para dirigirse a su nicho, el motor se apaga en medio del asombro general.
                    Carbó retira su mano del bastón, se seca el sudor de la cara con la manga del overall. Entonces, una amplia sonrisa aparece en su rostro.
                    Un saludo para todos.
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Кош View Post
                      Book by Victor Markovsky mentions VP-50 installations on ML, MLA, MLD and even UB going to Afghanistan. Unfortunately all clear photos that I've found are MLD's. But multiple MiG-23ML pilots and technicians on many forums and Razbam discord stated that VP-50-60 launcher rack is bolt-on. MiG-29 flare dispensers are also separate bolt-on device and not part of the airframe btw.
                      UPD - there are photos of UB with VP-50, which is technically an MF with dual cockpit. So if can mount it on UB which is like really different from MLD, mounting to ML should be no problem at all.
                      Thank you!! I'll definitely check that out. It's very interesting that that the ML and MLA also had this retrofit. I had a heated debate with a person over whether the MLA could in fact load BVP-50-60s or not, I appreciate this information.

                      What's the name of the book if I may ask? I'd really like to read it.
                      Last edited by EpicBlitzkrieg87; 09-20-2020, 10:37 AM.
                      Urraaaa!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Koty View Post
                        But this more/less sensitive in the end does not matter. What matters is the end result, that being range. Where they are more or less equal, with slight advantage when it comes to the ML.

                        But here's the catch - electronic warfare exists. And more powerful radar is always an advantage. Until you get down low, where the radar power becomes a hindrance - because you need to filter out all the noise you get reflecting from the ground. Even then you can find the enemy on N003 with enough time before your missiles get in range.
                        One of the advantages is as well counter-jamming. When the jammer can't send a signal that overpowers yours, you will get advantage. But as you say, there comes disadvantages as well.

                        As for GCI, it's a situational awareness thing. No, GCI will not be able to tell your enemy's energy state from the radar screen. Nor would the poor guy there be able to communicate to you quickly enough. This is the reason why even the "merge" exists. Did you know radars do not have infinite resolution? At some point, speaking about older radars, the "blips" of you and the target will merge on the screen, to the point where you cannot tell them apart. That is the "merge". More modern radars will still be able to recognize and display two separate targets, but the refresh rate and the spacing (or lack there of) will prevent the GCI from giving you any meaningful inputs.
                        And that is exactly the thing here, it is different to try to track something from 600 km than from a 100 km. You have a different resolutions and different capabilities with EW and tracking radars than airborne radars. EW radars resolutions can be in couple hundred meters, not enough for weapons grade targeting but enough for even a dog fight, and tracking radars gives even better idea. As dog fight is not that you swirl around each other's in 100-300 meters from each others, you really are 1-4 kilometers from each others, especially when you have no eyes to multiple threats. And you get to know target speed, altitude and vector so you will know your tracked target energy state if you follow the combat in your mind.

                        The idea that GCI can't see what is happening 2-3 km around you as you are "merged" is just....
                        i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.
                        i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

                        Comment


                        • None of that necessarily means the GCI is telling you the energy state of your opponent

                          Comment


                          • Thought I'd share some beautiful shots (they're of MiG-23Ms though)


                            Urraaaa!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fri13 View Post
                              And that is exactly the thing here, it is different to try to track something from 600 km than from a 100 km. You have a different resolutions and different capabilities with EW and tracking radars than airborne radars. EW radars resolutions can be in couple hundred meters, not enough for weapons grade targeting but enough for even a dog fight, and tracking radars gives even better idea. As dog fight is not that you swirl around each other's in 100-300 meters from each others, you really are 1-4 kilometers from each others, especially when you have no eyes to multiple threats. And you get to know target speed, altitude and vector so you will know your tracked target energy state if you follow the combat in your mind.

                              The idea that GCI can't see what is happening 2-3 km around you as you are "merged" is just....
                              CGI is not a radar... its a system: a system of radars of distinct characteristics, computers, comand centers... etc etc etc, and i dont know the bands in wich operate an modern (or older) cgi radar systems... but i think they can se more than a couple of km in resolution (they have an really strategic role and i think they have betther radars than the counter baterys have... or the guidance radars in the long range anty air bateries) even the airports can measure the distances between aicrafts of very diferent sices (i think diferenc resolution at diferent disctances and targuets... so the theme is more complex)

                              I think you are thinking dogfigth as an bvr engagement... if you are pursing someone about 7km... and you got somemebody at your 3 chasing you.... you think your radar is going to show you this threat?? you can manage both thread at a time??? sure??? pulling 7g behind someone and loking the thread at your 3?... and if you can do this... how much longuer is that situation?1/4 of a second? the guy in your 3 are behind you with the wingnam of the guy you pursuit and your radar is showing this too????
                              and... wen you are pursuing the guy at 7km and 7g, in what radar mode you are using?
                              i tell you... if you can see in your radar the guy at your 3... and the guy you got rigth behind... is command and control who is showing you (cgi, awacs, or the name you want to give them)

                              Comment


                              • Something interesting regarding the use of R-23R:
                                Because of interference of the aircraft radar with homing head of missile, it flew blind first 3sec in carrier avoidance path. After those 3sec missile will try to home to target. not sure if this was different on R24R.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X