Credit where credit is due.

[Cowboy10uk]

So I’ve just changed my axis settings to some I saw on YouTube when Casmo.tv tested the Gazelle a few weeks ago. Now I was to be fair quite dubious that this would make much of a difference, and I will freely admit that I have never been able to get on with the Gazelle, and thought it was quite a poor helo within the DCS world.

 

I WAS WRONG

 

I hold my hands up, I apologise now to the Polychop Devs. I couldn’t have been more wrong.

 

Now is the FM realistic, honestly I’ve no idea, I’ve never flown in a gazelle, but I do see some real world pilots including one with a fair few 1000 hrs of the airframe, stating that actually it is, and I must say with the axis settings I put in from the YouTube vid, damn it flew amazingly well.

 

I’ve just flown Nap from Damascus to Beruit in the new Syria map, and I will state here and now, not only was it the best helo experience I’ve ever had in DCS, it might also have been the best experience I’ve had in this sim full stop.

 

Controversial I know, and honestly I’m as surprised as anyone else, but damn once you get your hardware dialled in correctly, this module is in a league of its own. I can’t wait for the Kiowa.

 

 

Thankyou Devs, Thankyou for sticking with us, through all the hate and negativity.

 

Whatever I can do to make it upto you, just say. Because I’ve never been so wrong about a module before.

[BaD CrC]

Welcome to the light side Cowboy10uk! :)

A very brave post and credits to you!

So sad there are still a lot of flat earthers here who, despite all the evidences provided by people with much higher credentials, are still digging their head in the dirt trying to prove they are right. So much time lost not enjoying this nice little module.

Edited August 27, 2020 by BaD CrC

[rrohde]

@Cowboy10uk :thumbup:

[RePhil]

@Cowboy10uk

Takes a big man to admit they were wrong well done sir

[swatstar98]

Now is your time to have fun with it, until kiowa goes out :D

[Rogue Trooper]

Nicely put Cowboy10uk.

 

Without doubt the perfect chopper for exploring new maps as you can get right into the tightest of spots for a good nose around.

[sublime]

I have to admit to similar. cowboy what are your settings?

i didnt mess with them but came back after about 2 years. gave it a new chance. its a lot better than I thought. I still cant change my mind about the BS. a KA52 Id be more.. open to. but the hind will solve that fiix

btw can I ask what happened to the minigun doorgun variant? did they delete with multicrew??

[Syndrome]

EDIT:

 

Scratch all of the below. No curves are needed to fly the Gazelle. All you need to do is uncheck the FORCE FEEDBACK box under OPTIONS > MISC. Then the step-wise twitchy-ness to the cyclic inputs completely goes away. The collective curve is still useful though.

 

=====================================================

 

I have to admit to similar. cowboy what are your settings?

i didnt mess with them but came back after about 2 years. gave it a new chance. its a lot better than I thought. I still cant change my mind about the BS. a KA52 Id be more.. open to. but the hind will solve that fiix

btw can I ask what happened to the minigun doorgun variant? did they delete with multicrew??

 

Casmo's settings iirc were 40% y-axis saturation on Pitch and 25% on Roll. Also a 15% curve on the collective to dampen the bursty take off sensitivity. The rudder changes he made were imo gear specific. With Crosswind MFG for example, no curves are needed for Rudder inputs. The less the better.

 

Personally I use the user modified curves very similar to Casmo's but the full range at the extremes so I can still have enough agility to evade incoming fire when needed. With Casmo's settings, the roll is so slow that I've had the rotors fail from the strain of going past the horizontal with a similar effect as a mast bump in a Huey. Realistic idk? But I prefer to be have full agility when needed.

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Syndrome

[dawgie79]

Maybe you adjusted your axis so you can control the damn thing, it still is far off.

 

[Pikey]

2020, still flies like nothing you can experience in Physics. Where on earth is the torque when adding power? Not getting anywhere near Kiowa until I see video evidence its normal.

[RealDCSpilot]

It's so simple to test the FM, hold your stick a couple of cm left or right when in air and watch what happens. This kind of behaviour is absolutely impossible with a helicopter, there is no mechanical or aerodynamic or SAS driven way to do a continuous roll with just a bit of stick deflection. It's also against everything how an engineer would design a helicopter.

A real pilot said "NO, IT DOES NOT FLIP ON THE BACK WHEN TILTING THE CYCLIC TO GET ABOUT 20 DEGREES OF ROLL AND THAT WE HOLD THE CYCLIC." (translated from french, link is below)

In real life you hold and move the stick all the time during maneuvering, there is no self centering and automatic straight leveling. The over-sensivity is also completely wrong, look how much stick movement is needed for just keeping her steady:

 

Here is what really was going on with french ALAT Gazelle pilots:

 

TLDR: Their first impression was good, they saw the cockpit and felt at home. Polychop took this for marketing the "tested and approved by real pilots" claim. After testing the FM more in detail the same pilots even recommend not to buy the DCS module.

 

"A colleague from ALAT advised me against taking the Gazelle (rightly so). Qd I tested it, my first impression was a very positive shock, the cockpit and the sounds are so realistic. I had this "Wow" effect that all Gazelle IRL pilots have when they discover this module. And it is completely understandable that ALAT pilots gave a positive opinion on this Polychop gazelle when it was released, for 2 reasons: -they had a "Wow" effect, and as long as it is not simmers, testing this gazelle with a Hotas, on a 2d screen etc .... Well, in the end it is not easy to do this direct analogy with reality. Personally, it took me 2 good hours of solo testing (knowing DCS and my Hotas very well, as well as the axis curve settings) to manage to write precisely the FM problems."

 

"Today I recommend instead the Huey and the MI8 which, apart from the Vortex, are realistic."

 

Sources: http://www.checksix-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=465&t=206209&p=1742308&hilit=inertie#p1742308

http://www.checksix-forums.com/viewtopic.php?f=465&t=206209&p=1742308&hilit=inertie#p1742326

 

"Some guys tell that ALAT pilots were happy with the FM when testing the Gazelle on DCS.

It's normal because when you test a Sim for the first time when you are also a real pilot, you miss the real sensation of flight that you are used to. And you pilot the Sim in response to the instant behavior of the module. I made the same mistake during the first 2 hours of flight with the Gazelle. I was like a child when I saw the cockpit for the first time, it was like 15 years ago when I learnt to fly in ALAT school at Dax. But passing the first 2 hours trying to apply curves on axes to have a realistic feeling, I never succeeded to reach a realistic FM. Then I searched for the mistakes and I have discovered some.

After that I performed a test flight with Polychop guys and now we are waiting for the new FM. Perhaps one day."

 

Source: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3929939&postcount=44

Edited September 11, 2020 by Alec Delorean

[PickleMonster]

Is there a way to block someone? Because I'm getting tired of seeing the same stuck record.

[Ramsay]

Is there a way to block someone?

 

At top of the page, open "User CP" --> on the left side bar, click "Edit Ignore List" and add any users whose posts you do not want read.

 

You'll still see their name when they post but the contents will be hidden (until you remove them from your "ignore list").

Edited September 11, 2020 by Ramsay

[PickleMonster]

Perfect!

[RealDCSpilot]

@PickleMonster

 

Hello! Test, check... :D

[tugais]

I honestly don't see the point to these messages too as the team already said they are going to build from the ground a new FM thanks to their new experience with the Kiowa module.

[MAXsenna]

I honestly don't see the point to these messages too as the team already said they are going to build from the ground a new FM thanks to their new experience with the Kiowa module.

+1

 

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[RealDCSpilot]

 

Look at the controls indicator box in the lower left corner, if that is what the new FM looks like nothing has changed. One millimeter of stick deflection for a hard bank?? Less than 50% collective for lift and hover with full combat load?

Edited September 13, 2020 by Alec Delorean

[Rogue Trooper]

The actual torque readout on the dash is separate from our gaming collective position.

What is the torque reading?

 

Flying the real life R22 was interesting for me.

There was a massive throw on its cyclic and collective I never used it.

At not one point did my hand leave its resting point on my leg for cyclic control..... not once.

80 knots or zero knots that cyclic stayed within the movements of my fingers alone, perhaps a slight rotation of movement around the base of my palm on its resting point on my leg.... I concentrated on finger tip control from the get go and I maintained it too.

I hated the look of the R22 cyclic but it is instantaneously adjustable for height and very responsive... great design.

 

The collective is slightly stiff but smooth to change, It resists your change but is smooth and somewhat easy. If you power up the collective fast, it really resists that fast change.... it is harder work but can be done. it changes resistance by the speed in which you change collective and it does this by simply limiting the flow of liquid through a certain sized hole.

 

If you look at all other choppers in DCS they all have a resistance to change programmed into the collective, whip up your gaming collective instantaneously and watch the in game collective stick slowly increase.... lagging well behind your friction free gaming input.

 

I hope we will have this in the OH-58D.

 

Looking forward to he OH-58D!

Edited September 30, 2020 by Rogue Trooper

[RealDCSpilot]

+1 on the collective behaviour

 

This is standard in every other DCS module, the simulation defines how fast you can move primary control inputs, not the user.

[Fri13]

2020, still flies like nothing you can experience in Physics. Where on earth is the torque when adding power? Not getting anywhere near Kiowa until I see video evidence its normal.

 

Today in DCS 2.5.6.55847 Open Beta:

 

2DzJnH-BByk

 

I don't want to see anything that kind behavior in the Kiowa Warrior.

And I believe that I don't, but the videos there are showing some traits of it.

Time will tell what we get.

 

The often recommended 40% pitch scale, 25% roll scale and -15% collective curve does not change the behavior at all in Gazelle. Same thing is with the SAS enabled or not, no difference.

 

If the problem would have been that Joystick/Throttle/Pedals input is multiplied multifold before outputted to the Gazelle, it would have been super simple fix by just correcting the ratio.

This way player who uses full joystick input scale, would get correct cyclic movement scale and the helicopter would react to cyclic input at correct amount.

 

But it is not the curves or saturation values that is the problem, it is what happens for the flight modeling how main rotor and anti-torque rotor reacts with air, mass and all.

 

 

Look at the controls indicator box in the lower left corner, if that is what the new FM looks like nothing has changed. One millimeter of stick deflection for a hard bank?? Less than 50% collective for lift and hover with full combat load?

 

Yes, that is scary indicator for the "improved development" that is supposedly waiting Gazelle.

It is like some of us needs to take a risk with Kiowa Warrior to find out what it really ends up to be in Gazelle.

 

So if/when the Polychop gets their Gazelle fixed, that is the time when credit can be given for all that effort. It is just sad that for years the current owners has been required to fly totally unrealistic helicopter.

[Fri13]

+1 on the collective behaviour

 

This is standard in every other DCS module, the simulation defines how fast you can move primary control inputs, not the user.

 

It actually should be adjustable by the developers.

There are various dampening given anyways for many, but some does not have it at all and you can see all the controls then reacting instantly.

 

It is nothing more than just a another dampening layer for joystick output before it is inputted to the module.

Considering that majority of their playerbase doesn't have anything else than a table top joystick and throttle with very small physical movement scale and possibly even jittery in some devices because hardware limitations like bad potentiometers or 8-bit (256 step) resolution. So to make the flying experience nicer the artificial dampening is added.

 

I wish that player could remove it from the axis fine tune panel, that full 1:1 input time is possible. As well that we could add it when someone has jitter in their input so we could apply own hysteresis for inputs to get things smoothed out.

[Gizmokev]

So one thread gets shut down and you guys all jump on another one.......wow....

 

For what its worth to anyone who cares to actually listen......the sat levels are not there to fix the FM issues they are there to compensate for a short throw stick and dampen the twitchiness of the airframe. I for one only reduce my sat levels to 50% on pitch and roll on the Y axis alone.

[Gizmokev]

+1 on the collective behaviour

 

This is standard in every other DCS module, the simulation defines how fast you can move primary control inputs, not the user.

 

It actually should be adjustable by the developers.

There are various dampening given anyways for many, but some does not have it at all and you can see all the controls then reacting instantly.

 

It is nothing more than just a another dampening layer for joystick output before it is inputted to the module.

Considering that majority of their playerbase doesn't have anything else than a table top joystick and throttle with very small physical movement scale and possibly even jittery in some devices because hardware limitations like bad potentiometers or 8-bit (256 step) resolution. So to make the flying experience nicer the artificial dampening is added.

 

Did you know that IRL there was a time limit imposed of 3 seconds when pulling from 0 pitch to IPS through the flight manual and FRCs. Perhaps you might want to consider the possibility that is the reason why your collective responds slower if you simply yank the collective up. Its protecting you from breaking the gearbox by using improper flying techniques......

Edited October 9, 2020 by Gizmokev

[Looney]

Here we go again, this thread is about something completely different. The mods already shut down one thread..

 

Put the guys on your ignore list if you want but don't feed them, it'll only get worse.