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    #21
    Originally posted by Syndrome View Post
    Gazelle was my first DCS module. I still don't understand the hate it gets. A lot of complaints are from people who have FFB toggled on and a the pitch and roll axes over-saturated,
    You are right, you don't understand the topic of problem of gazelle.

    Like here is a difference.

    In a real helicopter if you want to fly in 15 degree bank to right (to fly around an enemy) then you need to move cyclic to the right and HOLD it there. As long you are holding cyclic at right at proper amount (among all other collective and pedal adjustments to compensate different cyclic input) you have constant main rotor AoA (Angle of Attack) applied to overcome pendulum effect based your COG (Center of Gravity).

    With Gazelle you start the banking by moving very very, very little the cyclic to the right until you reach 15 degree banking, and then you reset cyclic back to center. And now your Gazelle flies 15 degree bank without main rotor blades AoA change... from neutral.

    Because complex three control adjustments that needs to move relative to each others, you must change each control positions through all flight. Constantly work with all three as their positions are required to change through all different changes in flight.

    In Gazelle, nope, that is not needed at all. You can have all automations turned off (SAS and TRIM) and it will fly hands free basically forever. You can ramp collective from 25% to 80% and nothing really changes than you gained extra 20 km/h in level flight. To fly gazelle through hard maneuvers at various speeds from 80 km/h to 180 km/h, one doesn't need anything else than move cyclic very very very slightly, and this means hard maneuvers like making level turns in 15 meters radius etc.

    The closest thing that comes to Gazelle flight modeling is F-35. Only thing that is different from it is that there is some pedal work required to do in hover. But otherwise Gazelle is like full automatic computerized aircraft. Known as "Flies like on rails".

    When one throws away all the helicopter flying skills and knowledge, the Gazelle becomes fun and super simple. But you can not fly it with an expectation that you are flying a conventional helicopter. It will kill you because it is doing totally wrong things than what it should do.

    And that is problem with upcoming Kiowa Warrior, as if it is true what released videos about it shows about, it is scary thing....
    i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.
    i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

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      #22
      Originally posted by Fri13 View Post
      Like "I pretend to buy an apple by touching apples at market" so I can to stand next to attractive person, but I have no intention to buy apple but I might end up buying one, or not.
      Ask her ( or him ) what they think of the Gazelle flight model after you have both fondled an apple together.
      That's a great chat up line and guarantees a date
      ---------------------------------------------------------
      PC specs:- Intel 386DX, 2mb memory, onboard graphics, 14" 640x480 monitor
      Modules owned:- Bachem Natter, Cessna 150, Project Pluto, Sopwith Snipe

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        #23
        Originally posted by Alec Delorean View Post
        I'm put off by the Gazelle's unrealistic handling and flying, how bad controls are and even how unrealistic the 3D model is animated during flying and auto hover. Never expected this from a DCS module. If ED's shop system had a refund option, i would have used it a long time ago.
        This. I won't buy the Kiowa.

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          #24
          First day buy for me! The Gazelle has a bad start but now it is an immensely fun little helicopter to fly despite some discrepancies that plague other modules too. I trust PC to make a great module with the KW. They had a very good communication on their Discord channel, but just not on this forum because it became too toxic.

          Comment


            #25
            Its funny, people complaining about the gazzelle have no idea how to fly a chopper IRL...

            Every chopper pilot I know says its not perfect but hardlly THAT bad...

            Then aggain armchair pilots wannabe think they are more hardcore than the real thing LOL..

            Yes I will buy the Kiowa.

            I enjoy the Gazelle for what it is.

            Comment


              #26
              Well said.

              Comment


                #27
                Originally posted by Baco View Post
                Its funny, people complaining about the gazzelle have no idea how to fly a chopper IRL...

                Every chopper pilot I know says its not perfect but hardlly THAT bad...

                Then aggain armchair pilots wannabe think they are more hardcore than the real thing LOL..

                Yes I will buy the Kiowa.

                I enjoy the Gazelle for what it is.

                +1

                First day buy!
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                DCS-Modules: F-5E / F-14A/B / F-16C / F/A-18C / A-10C / A-10C II / AV-8B / MIG-21bis / UH-1H / KA-50 / MI-8MT / FC3 / Combined Arms / Christen Eagle II / Supercarrier / Nevada / Persian Gulf / Syria

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                  #28
                  Originally posted by Baco View Post
                  Its funny, people complaining about the gazzelle have no idea how to fly a chopper IRL...
                  So your argument is that if someone complain from Gazelle flight modeling, then they don't have any idea how to fly a helicopter in a real world.....

                  That is fallacy.....

                  As is your claim that every real pilot you know says that Gazelle is not "that bad"....is "no true Scotsman..."

                  Is the Gazelle as bad as a.... Sorry, tried to remember something totally awful, but point is that no. The gazelle ain't so bad.

                  But it ain't "so great" neither.
                  i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.
                  i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

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                    #29
                    I'm on the wait and see. I tend not to buy as soon as things are released. (I do enough Beta testing for my day job - happy to let someone else do the work for my recreation).

                    If the reviews are good re the Kiowa, I'll have no problems buying it. If the reviews come back poor - I'll skip it and go for something else.

                    Or - if something else is released prior to - it will probably have my cash if it has good reviews.

                    I'm not an all-in, or all-out kinda bloke. I'm happy to let the dust settle and see what remains.

                    So for me it's a combination of the release date (if anything beats it that I'm interested in), and reviews from people who actually buy it and can give first hand experience of what it's like.

                    Comment


                      #30
                      First day buy for me. Love the Gazelle.

                      Comment


                        #31
                        Originally posted by Fri13 View Post
                        In a real helicopter if you want to fly in 15 degree bank to right (to fly around an enemy) then you need to move cyclic to the right and HOLD it there. As long you are holding cyclic at right at proper amount (among all other collective and pedal adjustments to compensate different cyclic input) you have constant main rotor AoA (Angle of Attack) applied to overcome pendulum effect based your COG (Center of Gravity).

                        With Gazelle you start the banking by moving very very, very little the cyclic to the right until you reach 15 degree banking, and then you reset cyclic back to center. And now your Gazelle flies 15 degree bank without main rotor blades AoA change... from neutral.

                        Because complex three control adjustments that needs to move relative to each others, you must change each control positions through all flight. Constantly work with all three as their positions are required to change through all different changes in flight.

                        In Gazelle, nope, that is not needed at all. You can have all automations turned off (SAS and TRIM) and it will fly hands free basically forever. You can ramp collective from 25% to 80% and nothing really changes than you gained extra 20 km/h in level flight. To fly gazelle through hard maneuvers at various speeds from 80 km/h to 180 km/h, one doesn't need anything else than move cyclic very very very slightly, and this means hard maneuvers like making level turns in 15 meters radius etc.

                        The closest thing that comes to Gazelle flight modeling is F-35. Only thing that is different from it is that there is some pedal work required to do in hover. But otherwise Gazelle is like full automatic computerized aircraft. Known as "Flies like on rails".

                        When one throws away all the helicopter flying skills and knowledge, the Gazelle becomes fun and super simple. But you can not fly it with an expectation that you are flying a conventional helicopter. It will kill you because it is doing totally wrong things than what it should do.

                        And that is problem with upcoming Kiowa Warrior, as if it is true what released videos about it shows about, it is scary thing....

                        When's the last time you flew the Gazelle?

                        1. There is definitely a pendulum effect in flight. You cannot leave the stick centered in a bank turn without swinging to the other side (eg crashing into the ground).
                        2. You cannot just lean forward and center the stick and maintain speed. The Gazelle is front heavy so it naturally pitches forward and will either speed up or slow down to 65knots with zero stick deflection depending on whether you're starting from a hover or from a very high speed.
                        3. If you have FFB enabled, the inputs become quantized and twitchy as hell, and in that case yes you can center the stick deflected and get the input bugs you mentioned. Sounds like at least half your issue. It's a known input bug, not a flight model bug. The solution is to untick FFB under MISC options, and controls become completely analog, update properly based on current cyclic deflection, and are buttery smooth.
                        4. It also sounds like your pitch and roll might be over saturated. Adjust Pitch saturation to 40% and Roll to 25%, and then you will require proper large stick deflections for big aerobatic maneuvers.

                        Not saying that the Gazelle FM couldn't use some serious polishing and more nuance, but most of what you say above is either fixable with a little tweaking in the settings, or is no longer true.
                        Last edited 10-06-2020, 08:57 AM.

                        Comment


                          #32
                          Originally posted by Syndrome View Post
                          When's the last time you flew the Gazelle?
                          Does gazelle fly differently than all other traditional helicopters?
                          Gazelle wasn't specified, just claim was made that anyone who has any negative to say about gazelle doesn't know how to fly a helicopter in real world.

                          So do not try to move goal posts.

                          1. There is definitely a pendulum effect in flight. You cannot leave the stick centered in a bank turn without swinging to the other side (eg crashing into the ground).
                          I can.... So does others.

                          Gazelle flies so that you start a bank turn by moving joystick from center to wanted side, when wanted angle of turn is achieved you return joystick back to center and the Gazelle keeps flying in that banking turn hypothetically forever.

                          You keep your joystick centered to maintain the current attitude. So if you hover or you fly 200+ km/h you have joystick centered to maintain it.

                          2. You cannot just lean forward and center the stick and maintain speed. The Gazelle is front heavy so it naturally pitches forward and will either speed up or slow down to 65knots with zero stick deflection depending on whether you're starting from a hover or from a very high speed.
                          Yes you can... Haven't you even seen the video in this thread about officially US military documented control positions vs Gazelle control positions?

                          https://youtu.be/E96fhzKmCHI just 10 min forward for quick reference. You will find that exact same behavior by flying Gazelle itself in DCS.

                          3. If you have FFB enabled, the inputs become quantized and twitchy as hell, and in that case yes you can center the stick deflected and get the input bugs you mentioned. Sounds like at least half your issue.
                          Do not make assumptions that my configs are wrong as you don't know them.
                          Do not make claims that "your problem is that you have FF enabled".

                          It's a known input bug, not a flight model bug.
                          Irrelevant bug. As we have all the time been talking flight modeling problems, not FF implementation problems.

                          The solution is to untick FFB under MISC options, and controls become completely analog, update properly based on current cyclic deflection, and are buttery smooth.
                          Irrelevant, again. Solution is known and recognized by Polychop, flight modeling requires rewriting using new methods.

                          4. It also sounds like your pitch and roll might be over saturated. Adjust Pitch saturation to 40% and Roll to 25%, and then you will require proper large stick deflections for big aerobatic maneuvers.
                          Wrong. You never limit your cyclic scale. If you have 40 cm tall joystick then last things you need even more is adjust saturation.
                          And adjusting input scales doesn't change the fact that flight modeling is broken. You are not changing the fact that gazelle doesn't fly properly.

                          If in a real Gazelle a input at X moment is in -100—+100 scale at +50 and in DCS it is required to be 0, it doesn't matter how much you change your joystick curves or saturation as it is still wrong.

                          Not saying that the Gazelle FM couldn't use some serious polishing and more nuance, but most of what you say above is either fixable with a little tweaking in the settings, or is no longer true.
                          Totally true even on this moment, and your try to solve problems in Gazelle with irrelevant "fixes" doesn't change that.

                          It requires rewriting, nothing less.
                          i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.
                          i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

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                            #33
                            I will decide that when the revisit of the gazelle is done

                            Comment


                              #34
                              Originally posted by Fri13 View Post
                              Does gazelle fly differently than all other traditional helicopters?
                              Have you flown any helicopter ? a simple yes or no will do
                              ---------------------------------------------------------
                              PC specs:- Intel 386DX, 2mb memory, onboard graphics, 14" 640x480 monitor
                              Modules owned:- Bachem Natter, Cessna 150, Project Pluto, Sopwith Snipe

                              Comment


                                #35
                                Originally posted by Fri13 View Post
                                It requires rewriting, nothing less.
                                You could try the fixes above and realize you're mistaken and that the FM right now isn't the biggest issue, it's the input bugs, and that the FM isn't that different from the Huey with the fixes above. Or you can wait for months or longer until the input bugs are fixed and the FM is reworked. It's up to you.

                                Was just trying to let you know about a shortcut. I'm not going to argue with you over something that you can test for your self to see if it's true.

                                Comment


                                  #36
                                  If there is anything useful in this thread, it is the result of the poll. The community clearly don't give a damn about all the haters, trolls and "experts" rant.

                                  Comment


                                    #37
                                    Originally posted by BaD CrC View Post
                                    The community clearly don't give a damn about all the haters, trolls and "experts" rant.
                                    ......in your opinion, I may assume?

                                    And who should care about this poll?
                                    Those who want to belong to some group that agrees with their purchase decision so they can feel good?
                                    i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.
                                    i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

                                    Comment


                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by Extranajero View Post
                                      Have you flown any helicopter ? a simple yes or no will do
                                      That is irrelevant, and you are moving goal posts about earlier made argument that those who say anything negative about Gazelle flight modeling can't have piloting experience in helicopters...
                                      i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.
                                      i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

                                      Comment


                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by Syndrome View Post
                                        You could try the fixes above and realize you're mistaken and that the FM right now isn't the biggest issue,
                                        Again you are advising with irrelevant claims, and happen to be wrong about it.

                                        it's the input bugs, and that the FM isn't that different from the Huey with the fixes above. Or you can wait for months or longer until the input bugs are fixed and the FM is reworked. It's up to you.
                                        Totally different than Huey. Gazelle has flight modeling problems, not just input problems. Its main problem is its flight modeling.
                                        That is why there are people people do not like its flight behavior and they are hoping to see that new flight modeling sooner or later.

                                        But that is what worries as well people, they look the Kiowa Warrior flight videos now from Polychop and they see the same behavior in the flight modeling and input as Gazelle has.

                                        Was just trying to let you know about a shortcut. I'm not going to argue with you over something that you can test for your self to see if it's true.
                                        You are claiming that I wouldn't know already all you have claimed to "fix" Gazelle, but you don't seem to understand that your advice is not a solution or a fix. It isn't even helping the Gazelle.

                                        It happens only after Polychop rewrites gazelle flight modeling. And that is coming, as you know. Question is, can they do it right this time, if Kiowa Warrior with similarly looking problems is using that exact method to rewrite later Gazelle flight modeling?

                                        I am considering not to buy Kiowa Warrior, but I would hate to say later "Didn't I fear so....". And happy if they would get it even believable level.
                                        i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.
                                        i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

                                        Comment


                                          #40
                                          Originally posted by Baco View Post
                                          Its funny, people complaining about the gazzelle have no idea how to fly a chopper IRL...

                                          Every chopper pilot I know says its not perfect but hardlly THAT bad...

                                          Then aggain armchair pilots wannabe think they are more hardcore than the real thing LOL..

                                          Yes I will buy the Kiowa.

                                          I enjoy the Gazelle for what it is.

                                          Wrong Baco, I have flown helicopters in real life and the flight model of the Gazelle is simply WRONG. I gave up trying to debate the issues long ago as people refuse to listen, but I do step in periodically to point out that yes we are still here, and no the flight model is not correct... No matter how many times folks try to say otherwise.

                                          And it is bad enough that I will not purchase or recommend Polychop products again.
                                          Period.
                                          "Pride is a poor substitute for intelligence."
                                          RAMBO

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