Need help with the radar gunsight

[Syndrome]

My LCOS and SSLC are both bouncing all over the place when I have a target locked up. It's about to give me a seizure. And hitting a target that doesn't take up most of my FOV is next to impossible.

 

 

Yet watching Growling Sidewinder's latest video with the JF-17, his gunsight is perfectly smooth in both LCOS and SSLC. So am I doing something wrong? Do I have a bugged install of this module? Any suggestions?

 

[Chiron]

My LCOS and SSLC are both bouncing all over the place when I have a target locked up. It's about to give me a seizure. And hitting a target that doesn't take up most of my FOV is next to impossible.

 

 

Yet watching Growling Sidewinder's latest video with the JF-17, his gunsight is perfectly smooth in both LCOS and SSLC. So am I doing something wrong? Do I have a bugged install of this module? Any suggestions?

 

 

if your video from online experience i would say lag cuz my gunsight didn't do this most of the time but if i am facing some lag or my target is lagging then it will happen

[Syndrome]

if your video from online experience i would say lag cuz my gunsight didn't do this most of the time but if i am facing some lag or my target is lagging then it will happen

 

The first video is single player with 180+ FPS with no vsync. And a solid 60hz with vsync. There is no lag anywhere except in the HUD reticle which seems to be running at 20hz at all times. Yet the reticle is bouncing all over the place.

 

Growling Sidewinder's video is online multiplayer, and he has a very smooth reticle that is refreshing its position at least at 60hz. The only reason his reticle bounces at all is because his jet is shaking violently at lower speeds.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Syndrome

[AeriaGloria]

The first video is single player with 180+ FPS with no vsync. And a solid 60hz with vsync. There is no lag anywhere except in the HUD reticle which seems to be running at 20hz at all times. Yet the reticle is bouncing all over the place.

 

Growling Sidewinder's video is online multiplayer, and he has a very smooth reticle that is refreshing its position at least at 60hz. The only reason his reticle bounces at all is because his jet is shaking violently at lower speeds.

 

The difference is G, it is shaking from the high G, correct or not

[Syndrome]

The difference is G, it is shaking from the high G, correct or not

 

It's definitely not shaking from G forces. The HUD just has a really low refresh rate for some reason, maybe from some toggle in the settings? You can see the same juddering from 1g to 6g. The physical distance between the polling updates for the reticle just gets bigger at higher G.

 

If you play the video below at 0.25x speed, you can see it's very clearly the same level of low refresh rate judder at all levels of G forces.

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Syndrome

[Chiron]

well i hope someone help u here cuz i didn't face that in SP before

[AeriaGloria]

It's definitely not shaking from G forces. The HUD just has a really low refresh rate for some reason, maybe from some toggle in the settings? You can see the same juddering from 1g to 6g. The physical distance between the polling updates for the reticle just gets bigger at higher G.

 

If you play the video below at 0.25x speed, you can see it's very clearly the same level of low refresh rate judder at all levels of G forces.

 

 

Yes that’s kind of what I meant, the increased G makes the difference between updates larger and more noticeable.

 

While we have not much to compare it to, I do know that Deka has said before they have correct refresh rates that are different depending on the element being rendered.

 

Here’s a video from this year of a Mirage 2000 5 against a F-16, it’s jittering may not be as much but it has a similarly slow update rate

 

I’m not saying it’s correct as is, just that there will always be some jittering from low refresh rate, even if it’s too much right now.

 

Deka has been honest before that programming the gunsight is more an art then a specific procedure, it has improved slightly over time and I’m sure they will change it if it can be more realistic in a way that’s doable. There is still some issues with it I think like the over drawing anyways, but I’m sure they will fix it if something is wrong:thumbup:

 

It would certainly be nice to jitter less if the real one is like that, but I’m also pretty sure that with the gunsight and the gun basically being an after thought with the lowest priority, I wouldn’t be surprised if the gunsight jitters that much in real life. If Chengdu actually put effort into the gunsight, I would think we would get something like EEGS V, but I have a feeling they thought the gyro modes were enough and why bother unless PAF paid them for it. Wouldn’t be the first thing it’s technically capable of but PAF didn’t pay for:megalol: I think there’s even a good joke about It in the quick start guide talking about how much the gunsight sucks and that it was basically a sacrifice to The Gods of low budget lightweight fighters:lol:

 

In the meantime I would certainly recommend using the SSLC/SS mode, as the long line makes it easier to see past the jittering pipper

Edited October 9, 2020 by AeriaGloria

[Syndrome]

well i hope someone help u here cuz i didn't face that in SP before

 

 

Thanks, I really hope so too. It's a great module, and I suppose somewhat still usable with just missiles and A-G, but without guns I'm kinda defenseless if I run out of ammo. I managed to shoot off most of an F-16's tail and I ran out of bullets while he was still somehow trimming out the damage with one stabilator to fly around and still effectively energy fighting me.

 

 

Here’s a video from this year of a Mirage 2000 5 against a F-16, it’s jittering may not be as much but it has a similarly slow update rate

 

I’m not saying it’s correct as is, just that there will always be some jittering from low refresh rate, even if it’s too much right now.

 

Deka has been honest before that programming the gunsight is more an art then a specific procedure, it has improved slightly over time and I’m sure they will change it if it can be more realistic in a way that’s doable. There is still some issues with it I think like the over drawing anyways, but I’m sure they will fix it if something is wrong:thumbup:

 

It would certainly be nice to jitter less if the real one is like that, but I’m also pretty sure that with the gunsight and the gun basically being an after thought with the lowest priority, I wouldn’t be surprised if the gunsight jitters that much in real life. If Chengdu actually put effort into the gunsight, I would think we would get something like EEGS V, but I have a feeling they thought the gyro modes were enough and why bother unless PAF paid them for it. Wouldn’t be the first thing it’s technically capable of but PAF didn’t pay for:megalol: I think there’s even a good joke about It in the quick start guide talking about how much the gunsight sucks and that it was basically a sacrifice to The Gods of low budget lightweight fighters:lol:

 

In the meantime I would certainly recommend using the SSLC/SS mode, as the long line makes it easier to see past the jittering pipper

 

The video you posted is recorded replaying at 30Hz. That's not HUD jitter, that's the whole video itself. You can see because the entire HUD as well as the targeted jet are all updating at the same rate as the target strip.

 

In the video I posted, look at the altitude marker on the HUD. It's buttery smooth. The only thing that is jittery is the LCOS and SSLC reticle itself (yes it happens with both LCOS and SSLC). I timed it. It's actually updating at a paltry 9hz. Maybe this was budgeted to cut down on CPU cycles? Maybe it's a bug? But it also makes the reticle useless. I have tried using it with 2g planar lag pursuit shots and emptied the entire clip from nose to tail of the target and hit nothing but air. Eventually I figured out that this is probably because the midpoint of the two polling locations that it bounces between appears to be lagging the target by almost the size of the reticle itself at anything less than point blank range.

 

The fact that some others are not having this issue made me wonder if I have a wrong setting in the MISC or special options menus? Or maybe a driver incompatibility. My driver is pretty new. My setup is relatively modern: RTX 2070 with 32 GB ram and a 9600 processor. DCS has it's own SSD. No bottle necking in afterburner. The issue is the same in VR as my monitor.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Syndrome

[AeriaGloria]

For the HUD, even if the altitude and other elements refresh very fast does not mean all other elements refresh at the same speed. Rastering technology has its limits, it has to be a conscious design decision to prioritize what should have a higher or lower refresh rate in order to draw the whole HUD in the time allotted.

 

So while that video may be 30hz, if you compare the bullet fall line and pipper in comparison to speed, AOA, G, and heading tape, I think you will see those far more fluid then the gunsight, as if the gunsight is drawn below 30hz. It may not be as bad as our JF-17, but I really see it there

 

As for accuracy, without a video or track of the shots it’s hard to say. Please forgive me if you are already familiar with these concepts, if you are already experienced with gyro gunsights you can skip this next paragraphs.

 

Unlike more advanced gunsights like EEGS or Hornet the bullets will never hit the spot where the pipper was when you pulled the trigger, the pipper is only showing you where the bullets will be after a trigger press at the selected range, or rather only showing where the bullets will be 1x bullet time of flight after you fire.

 

Similarly, the gunsight will also have a settling time or lag of 1x bullet TOF, this is easier to see in SS/SSLC mode where you can see the bullet fall line be updated down the line as you maneuver, with close range being updated faster and longer ranges taking longer to reflect your maneuver, in direct relation to bullet TOF

 

So it will only be perfectly accurate(the bullet will hit the exact spot of where the pipper was when you pulled the trigger) if you are behind them and maintain the same G as the target with no pipper movement across the target. For a snap shot, where the pipper is moving across the target, you will have to shoot 1x bullet TOF before the target is in the pipper, so that when you press the trigger the pipper will be on target by the time the bullets get to target range.

 

If you want to know more or if my explanation sucks look at videos or posts of people in DCS using the Mirage 2000C gunsight, as it has similar symbology and is only a gyro gunsight as well, so it works the same where the gunsight “lags” exactly 1x bullet TOF.

 

I wouldn’t worry about drivers or hardware, people just don’t use the gun a lot, it points 2.5 degrees down and it has a gyro sight like the Mirage that everyone hates and has been complaining about since Mirage release, it was very much an after thought by Chengdu/PAF and it seems to be just as useless in DCS as it probably is in real life:)

 

I Personally love using the gun despite the challenges, but in a normal dogfight it’s pretty much useless. People just don’t expect much from it, I have not seen many people bring up the jittering but I’ve seen more then a couple players bring up the gunsight, and every single player has told me how useless The gun and sight is, you are not alone:joystick::pilotfly:

Edited October 10, 2020 by AeriaGloria

[J20Stronk]

It's a limitation due to how the DIS engineers coded it.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4134973&postcount=3

 

The gunsight from what I gather should not jitter this badly in the real plane.

Nor should it have such a large delay between target and reticle position, giving you taget solutions that are WAY off.

 

Modules like the F14 or even the MiG 21 have much better target pos. predication radar sights and they don't jitter like it does on the JF-17.

 

IMO the gunsights need an overhaul.

Edited October 10, 2020 by J20Stronk

[Syndrome]

I Personally love using the gun despite the challenges, but in a normal dogfight it’s pretty much useless. People just don’t expect much from it, I have not seen many people bring up the jittering but I’ve seen more then a couple players bring up the gunsight, and every single player has told me how useless The gun and sight is, you are not alone:joystick::pilotfly:

 

Hmm, I'm gonna have to agree with those people. I've had the gunsight calm down enough while I was on a target's six that there should be no chance of missing, with them dead center in a nearly stationary reticle with a good lock, and still the bullets will fly either over their head or behind them or sometimes even to the side. So I guess you just have to either guess like a WW2 pilot or try to put the tip of the cannon almost flush with their nozzles and pull the trigger. Given that the jet is a very good rate fighter with excellent nose control, accomplishing the latter is really just a matter of time and fuel. But it is kinda crazy that it's much easier to land medium range A-A gun kills with the A-10C, which doesn't even have a radar gun sight.

 

As for the mirage video, I recommend that you slow down the video to 0.25x in the youtube settings. You will the see the clouds change position each time that the gun ribbon does. It's a low FPS video, about 24 FPS (eg 24hz). Not nearly as low FPS as the 9hz HUD reticle in the JF-17. I would be seriously happy with a 24hz reticle, though I fear that as you say, it would still be a rough guess, and not reliable.

 

I really appreciate your responses btw. Hopefully someone at Deka can chime in and give a clue as why my LCOS/SSLC polling rate seems to be so much lower than some other people even when they're playing multiplayer? My SS gun ribbon is perfectly smooth btw, no stuttering whatsoever.

[AeriaGloria]

I think Growling Sidewinders video just makes it look smoother then reality, as far as I remember he only had it on a few times and never used it to kill or shoot in that recent video, I don’t think it was really “pushed.” Not to mention his anti aliasing, YouTube compression, could all make its movements look softer.

 

These Raster Scan HUDs do often draw different parts with different refresh rates, for example to the designer likely prioritized update rate of primary flight indicators, speed altitude heading artificial horizon, and leaving the less primary elements to have lower he rates so that the entire HUD can be drawn in enough time, otherwise it may not be able to draw all elements in enough time with fast enough hz when displaying multiple things. If the update of gunsight is really 9hz, I would completely believe it, that they would consider that of such little importance to not improve it compared to previous planes, and leave it in a very basic form.

 

You could say they expect to use the gun, just not planned to use it against other fighters in dogfights very much;) it’s an emergency back up in a dogfight, and very useful against undefended large targets like you might see in common intercepts or air policing. There’s quite a bit of footage of PAF using it in air to ground, and I suspect that in almost all situations that is the most use it would get, as an air to ground weapon.

 

For ferry flights they often even take out the ammo so they can use the compartment for storage instead of taking a travel pod.

 

As for accuracy, I struggled with it for very long but after a long time of treating it no different then the gyro gunsight of earlier airplanes, I started to get really successful, and in my experience can be just as accurate as anything else with a gyro gunsight if you use it right. But I really think the downward pointed angle makes things hard in that the bullets take a steeper angle, so imo you kind of need to shoot a little in front of them because the bullets will never fly as flat

 

I think if you keep up practice, you will eventually get really good at it especially if you stay out of LCOS, but it is certainly hard, and will always be more difficult then other fourth gen planes. I got in the MiG-21, basically earlier Soviet version of same gun, and it’s crazy how good it feels having the gun pointed straight at boresight, it makes a big difference, with the gun pointed down it really rewards shooting a little ahead so the bullets don’t dive behind the target

[Tiger-II]

Even if the HUD in the Jeff has a low update rate, the brain soon compensates and you don't see it. Part of the slow upodate could be due to processing "up stream" of the pipper, e.g. interpreting RADAR data and computing target position for the sight.

 

There are lots of reasonable explanations for slow pipper update, vs. airspeed or altitude display.

 

That alone doesn't explain the jumpiness. That will be due to target position prediction algorithms not liking the position jumps (which simply wouldn't happen in reality).

 

Note that real-life gun sights are not perfect! There are plenty of examples of F-16 HUDs lagging during maneuvering, and the pippers showing their vintage on the display.