JF-17 Ground radar EXP modes

[Caster]

Now that the hornet is getting it's EXP modes (

), does this mean the JF-17 will be getting similar functionality / able to use whatever underlying API. I'm not familiar whether the real-life version AG radar has this functionality, and if it does, whether it's planned on being included

[J20Stronk]

EXP & DBS1/2 are already in the JF-17 with the correct effects. S2 left switches between modes, or you can use MFD U2 to enter the mode select submenu in the AG RDR page.

 

One thing that is not fully implemented is TDC usage while in EXP modes: you can move it around and designate stuff, but the area you designate is relative to the full RBM image and not to the smaller EXPanded section.

[uboats]

it will be broken in the next ob update (Aug)

since ED just changed the exp render code, and we need to ask ED what has been changed and need time to make them work.

[Mustang25]

it will be broken in the next ob update (Aug)

since ED just changed the exp render code, and we need to ask ED what has been changed and need time to make them work.

 

 

Thanks for letting us know and keep up the good work!

 

Will you all also be fixing the TDC selector issue as J20stronk mentioned above?

[Shrike88]

Was wondering this also immediately on viewing wags video zezblit, thanks for posting.

 

Also thanks for the response Uboats. Will be looking at enhanced DSB with the JF as it’s such an awesome feature and currently what we have looks different on how it renders in Wags video, especially the ability to accurately target positions on the ground vs how it we currently have it

 

Still absolutely loving the JF

[Mustang25]

Does the JF-17 also have the ability to realign INS using the ground radar IRL? Given how much it drifts even with GPS assistance, it would be helpful to have this ability.

[J20Stronk]

Does the JF-17 also have the ability to realign INS using the ground radar IRL? Given how much it drifts even with GPS assistance, it would be helpful to have this ability.

 

>Designate a landmark using the AG RDR

>Go into the position update page on the UFC

>Set the waypoint to 40

>fly into the SPI and realign.

 

It helps to bind the UFC button to a rarely used button on your HOTAS, or an easy-to-reach key on your KB.

[Mustang25]

>Designate a landmark using the AG RDR

>Go into the position update page on the UFC

>Set the waypoint to 40

>fly into the SPI and realign.

 

It helps to bind the UFC button to a rarely used button on your HOTAS, or an easy-to-reach key on your KB.

 

I had no idea about this and I've been flying since release! Thanks for the info, we really need a proper manual for the module...

[LastRifleRound]

>Designate a landmark using the AG RDR

>Go into the position update page on the UFC

>Set the waypoint to 40

>fly into the SPI and realign.

 

It helps to bind the UFC button to a rarely used button on your HOTAS, or an easy-to-reach key on your KB.

 

I'm confused at how this works. Waypoint 00 is ownship. Waypoint 40 is a SPI, a by-definition relative-to-aircraft measure.

 

Don't you have to set the waypoint on the UFC POS page to the waypoint position you are trying to update, then overfly that area? With your procedure the SPI is a set position from the aircraft as measured by a sensor (let's say laser from TPOD). Overflying it and updating it's position shouldn't change anything at all. It already knew the slant range to that arbitrary point. Or is it purely coordinate based, and when you lase you are actually getting bad coordinates, and updating with an overfly fixes this? If that's the case the WEZ on INS munitions from the JF17 should be all over the place. Right now they're pretty accurate.

[J20Stronk]

I'm confused at how this works. Waypoint 00 is ownship. Waypoint 40 is a SPI, a by-definition relative-to-aircraft measure.

 

Don't you have to set the waypoint on the UFC POS page to the waypoint position you are trying to update, then overfly that area? With your procedure the SPI is a set position from the aircraft as measured by a sensor (let's say laser from TPOD). Overflying it and updating it's position shouldn't change anything at all. It already knew the slant range to that arbitrary point. Or is it purely coordinate based, and when you lase you are actually getting bad coordinates, and updating with an overfly fixes this? If that's the case the WEZ on INS munitions from the JF17 should be all over the place. Right now they're pretty accurate.

 

 

You are correct in that this should do absolutely nothing.

 

It does not actually use the radar to give AZ and RNG differences to a known waypoint. Rather it uses the differece between "Combat" SPI and "NAV' SPI to fix drift, which is not how "drift fix by radar" works irl. (Look up Redkite's F-14 INS fix video to see how the concept of using radar to fix drift would work in the JF-17)

 

In the JF-17's current state, systems that are used for employing weapons are 100% accurate. They have a "magic" INS that always displays correct position info regardless of the plane's actual INS. You can see this for yorself by flying perpendicular to a waypoint for a couple of minutes, then turn towards it to center the WPT on the HUD and switching to AG MM. The SPI will shift to the "Combat SPI", which is always in the correct geographical position.

 

Couple the fact that INS drift only affects NAV mode and Combat-related sensors like AG-radar are always accurate, this lets you use the sensor's SPI as a fix point.

 

Once the Navigation systems are finished, if you do not have HNS enabled or have no satellite link available in the mission, both NAV and Combat SPIs will correlate with each other and will drift naturally (INS/GPS weapons should suffer accuracy penalties from bad coordinates given by the drifted computer). INS fixing using position update will need to be done regularly, and like you said WPT 40 would not help at all since it is what the computer interprets as an already "correct" point.

 

If HNS is available then the mission computer will update itself using the GPS at regular intervals, preventing drift. You should not need to fix drift once HNS is implemented.

 

tl;dr The JF-17 has a simple INS drift that only affects NAV mode and not AG mode. You can use AG mode SPIs to fix NAV mode SPIs because they are different things in the current implementation. (Should be changed in the September update)

Also HNS does not work at all.

Edited August 18, 2020 by J20Stronk

[LastRifleRound]

You are correct in that this should do absolutely nothing.

 

It does not actually use the radar to give AZ and RNG differences to a known waypoint. Rather it uses the differece between "Combat" SPI and "NAV' SPI to fix drift, which is not how "drift fix by radar" works irl. (Look up Redkite's F-14 INS fix video to see how the concept of using radar to fix drift would work in the JF-17)

 

In the JF-17's current state, systems that are used for employing weapons are 100% accurate. They have a "magic" INS that always displays correct position info regardless of the plane's actual INS. You can see this for yorself by flying perpendicular to a waypoint for a couple of minutes, then turn towards it to center the WPT on the HUD and switching to AG MM. The SPI will shift to the "Combat SPI", which is always in the correct geographical position.

 

Couple the fact that INS drift only affects NAV mode and Combat-related sensors like AG-radar are always accurate, this lets you use the sensor's SPI as a fix point.

 

Once the Navigation systems are finished, if you do not have HNS enabled or have no satellite link available in the mission, both NAV and Combat SPIs will correlate with each other and will drift naturally (INS/GPS weapons should suffer accuracy penalties from bad coordinates given by the drifted computer). INS fixing using position update will need to be done regularly, and like you said WPT 40 would not help at all since it is what the computer interprets as an already "correct" point.

 

If HNS is available then the mission computer will update itself using the GPS at regular intervals, preventing drift. You should not need to fix drift once HNS is implemented.

 

tl;dr The JF-17 has a simple INS drift that only affects NAV mode and not AG mode. You can use AG mode SPIs to fix NAV mode SPIs because they are different things in the current implementation. (Should be changed in the September update)

Also HNS does not work at all.

 

Excellent explanation. I figured it was likely disregarding nav error for weapons employment. I think we'll have a DSG option when they're done with INS so we can use our TPOD or radar for updates. I also suspect HNS will do a better job position keeping than it does now.

 

For now, DEKA took a reasonable approach. Until you have a good way of keeping the INS up to date, it would be annoying to have it effect weapons delivery. I will use your technique before I approach home plate, as the waypoint box is WAY off and can make IFR landings a challenge if the nav isn't trued up.

[Focha]

I tested EXP modes, but I was expecting a much better resolution as you had initially. Is this how it is in the aircraft?

 

Also, I am having a lot of o trouble locking radar in GMT mode.

[Eihort]

So if I am to understand previous posts correctly, the actual implementation of using these new modes to find a stationary building or other geopoint (not an in-game unit like a tank or ship) isn't working correctly yet?

 

I've been having a hell of a time trying to figure out how to steer the SAR map to show me a target whether on a waypoint or not. The TDC designation seems to move the area around randomly or unpredictably limiting the usefulness.

 

Am I doing something wrong or is it still not complete?

[ofcross]

Hello, I don't know if this is a bug or just me using the radar in the wrong way but, while in EXP modes you still have that "center mask" that only should appear in front of the airplane, you can see in the pictures that the radar is pointing to the right where shouldn't be any masking.

 

I'm sad ED force you to change the way you use to render the radar returns, it was a lot clear and easy to read!

 

Pointing the radar to the right

 

The mask is present even thou not pointing to the center

[ofcross]

So if I am to understand previous posts correctly, the actual implementation of using these new modes to find a stationary building or other geopoint (not an in-game unit like a tank or ship) isn't working correctly yet?

 

I've been having a hell of a time trying to figure out how to steer the SAR map to show me a target whether on a waypoint or not. The TDC designation seems to move the area around randomly or unpredictably limiting the usefulness.

 

Am I doing something wrong or is it still not complete?

 

 

Same here!

[J20Stronk]

The EXP modes still need a lot of work to be fully functional.

 

Firstly, designating using the TDC in EXP/DBS doesn't work yet. It always assumes the radar is in RBM mode and will designate a completely different area than what you see in EXP. Also the TDC sensitivity does not scale correctly in EXP, it's too sensitive and moves way faster than in MAP, making it difficult to select a specific point.

 

Second, the way the radar renders the DBS image and doppler mask is completely wrong. When you designate a point way off-boresight from the aircraft's heading and switch to EXP, the image will set the antenna's heading as the "up" reference, when in reality it should still be using the aircraft's heading as "up". This is why we always get that 20° cone mask in EXP no matter or offset heading to the target. This is incorrect; only the area within 10° left or right from the aircraft's nose should be masked, and the aircraft heading should always be "up".

 

Thirdly, the AG radar will always magically detect ground vehicles and display their exact positions on the HSD with datalink even in MAP mode. Really only GMTI and SEA1/2 should be the only modes that display contacts on the HSD, since these modes are the only ones capable of detecting moving vehicles and ships.

 

One more thing, using S2 Left to enter EXP just brings up a blank radar scope, nothing is shown.

Edited August 27, 2020 by J20Stronk

[uboats]

yup, we are still learning ED's new AG render

including how to make the EXP/DBS TDC movement accurate

the black narrow beam is old fx script, will fix in next patch

[ofcross]

yup, we are still learning ED's new AG render

including how to make the EXP/DBS TDC movement accurate

the black narrow beam is old fx script, will fix in next patch

 

 

Good news!

 

 

Greetings to the team, thank you!

[Japo32]

Previous to this today patch I could see the EXP DBS modes render in the AG radar.. but now appears black... is it ok? or broken?

 

Thanks!

[Tyrant07]

Previous to this today patch I could see the EXP DBS modes render in the AG radar.. but now appears black... is it ok? or broken?

 

Thanks!

 

Same. I get nothing but a black screen in the EXP modes

[SuumCuique]

You need to lock again, but it is still broken. The "dopplernotch" is always in the middle of the screen, no matter which direction the radar is pointing.

 

To enter the EXP, DBS modes right now, you need to slave the AG radar, or lock something with it, switch to EXP, move the TDC a tiny amount (otherwise you enter FTT) and lock again. Now the picture is created.

[riojax]

Deka, How is the AG EXP new API implementation process going?

[Harlikwin]

Yeah, I'd also be interested in the A/A radar and if it will be updated to behave more realistically.

[uboats]

Deka, How is the AG EXP new API implementation process going?

 

will be main focus. hope we can fix it by the end of this year.

[riojax]

Any update?