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    #21
    Originally posted by Gladman View Post
    Those that create have the power. Save the miz and edit.
    If I wanted to edit a campaign that I paid for i'd just build the campaign and save to money. If you're going to charge money you should try and please the customer.

    It also applies to ED who made the missions the planes come with. We pay for those.
    Buzz

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      #22
      Originally posted by BuzzU View Post
      If I wanted to edit a campaign that I paid for i'd just build the campaign and save to money. If you're going to charge money you should try and please the customer.

      It also applies to ED who made the missions the planes come with. We pay for those.
      You have the choice to pay or not. If your not going to be happy with the product, don't buy it. You can easily ask if it has your required options.
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        #23
        Originally posted by Gladman View Post
        You have the choice to pay or not. If your not going to be happy with the product, don't buy it. You can easily ask if it has your required options.
        In the future I will be asking first. It’s ridiculous that we have to ask for simulation features in a simulation.

        DCS has been flooded with ‘make stuff go boom” gamers

        Originally posted by randomTOTEN View Post
        can OP edit the thread title please?
        I would actually but I don’t think that can be edited. What I’m really asking for is the option of a cold start instead of the hot starts being forced on you. An Auto Start feature actually makes it more flexible for players if every mission started on the ramp.

        But it’s being used as such a crutch apparently that nobody knows how to start any of the aircraft so mission designers have stopped putting ramp starts into campaigns.
        Last edited 09-27-2020, 09:07 PM.
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          #24
          Originally posted by SharpeXB View Post
          I don’t really care about how other people play the sim and yes I suppose there is a use for this in terms of accessibility. But it’s just getting out of control IMO and it’s really affecting my personal enjoyment of DCS. Every single SP mission I get for the Hornet including paid DLC campaigns feature hot starts for the aircraft. WTF?! I’ve never seen campaigns like this before with any other aircraft. If players wanted to skip the start sequence they could just use Auto Start but putting that as a default ruins the experience for those of is who want the full sim experience. And it’s not just one mission it’s all of them! The only SP mission I can find with a cold start is actually the Cold Start quick mission. So it’s apparent that DCS is being overrun by players who really don’t want the sim experience but are forcing themselves into DCS. When MAC launches they’ll have their simplified systems aircraft and DCS should get rid of this cheat because it’s just getting out of control.
          2 Things

          1: When designing a mission, accounting for variables in startup time can seriously bork a mission timeline. Especially when some people can do it faster than the auto function and some take half the day. There are some workarounds for this, but it's more effort for the mission designer. That said, I've started designing most of my missions cold-start.

          2: You can go into any custom mission you like, select the player aircraft, and under the first waypoint change it from 'hot start' or 'start on runway' to 'start on ramp.' If you're too lazy to do that with a freeware mission file that somebody else put their time and effort into creating, feel free to design and play your own stuff. Not everyone plays the way you do. For payware missions and campaigns, feel free to vote with your wallet.

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            #25
            Originally posted by Gladman View Post
            Those that create have the power. Save the miz and edit.
            Is it even possible to edit paid campaigns and have them still work correctly?

            Because I agree with the OP: if the paid campaigns have hotstart aircraft in every mission they would be wasted money for me.
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              #26
              Originally posted by Gladman View Post
              You have the choice to pay or not. If your not going to be happy with the product, don't buy it. You can easily ask if it has your required options.
              If I was selling campaigns i'd try and please as many buyers as possible. Wouldn't you?
              Buzz

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                #27
                Originally posted by jmarso View Post
                but it's more effort for the mission designer.
                Sure it’s more effort but it creates a better experience playing the mission. But they’ve stopped putting in the effort since it’s not getting used. So eventually ED will follow the same logic and stop putting full systems into the modules.

                Originally posted by jmarso View Post
                You can go into any custom mission you like, select the player aircraft, and under the first waypoint change it from 'hot start' or 'start on runway' to 'start on ramp.'
                Yes but you may screw up the scripting and timeline if all the other AI are on the runway an take off without you. Like you said above it had to be scripted into the mission.

                Originally posted by BuzzU View Post
                If I was selling campaigns i'd try and please as many buyers as possible. Wouldn't you?
                And the way to appease everyone is with a cold ramp start. Then if anybody wants to skip that and Auto Start they can. But if the mission has a hot start forced into it there’s no other choice.
                Last edited 09-27-2020, 09:18 PM.
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                  #28
                  Yup.
                  Last edited 09-27-2020, 09:22 PM.
                  Buzz

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                    #29
                    SharpeXB wins the argument. Any single player campaign mission should ramp start because you can always auto start afterward.

                    Telling someone to edit a paid campaign for rampstarts is not acceptable.
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                      #30
                      Originally posted by BuzzU View Post
                      If I was selling campaigns i'd try and please as many buyers as possible. Wouldn't you?
                      I'd say jmarso's post sums it up about as good as you can get it. Beyond that, it could be the creator prefers one way to the other. Again, vet the product and choose to support or not. The free market will take care of the rest.
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                        #31
                        Originally posted by Gladman View Post
                        it could be the creator prefers one way to the other.
                        The creator is either being lazy or just being pragmatic about the fact that DCS has become full of “gamers” who don’t really want a simulation.

                        I’m sure about 90% of DCS gamers can’t start the aircraft or do anything besides fly it into the ground and gawk at the graphics or whatever.
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                          #32
                          closed for moderation

                          Edit:

                          Thread reopened.

                          A reminder to all, keep to our forum rules, please do not derail the thread, keep it to the threads topic, treat everyone with respect when posting.

                          thank you
                          Last edited 09-27-2020, 09:58 PM.


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                            #33
                            Originally posted by SharpeXB View Post
                            The creator is either being lazy or just being pragmatic about the fact that DCS has become full of “gamers” who don’t really want a simulation.

                            I’m sure about 90% of DCS gamers can’t start the aircraft or do anything besides fly it into the ground and gawk at the graphics or whatever.
                            You could be correct, however it doesn't change the reality of your having little to no control over it and it being very unlikely to change.

                            I like the manual start myself, it helps me get into the mood, but I won't complain about a person spending countless hours to build me a mission or set of mission to fly. Again, you can let the free market work itself out, if you don't like the product, don't buy it.
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                              #34
                              Originally posted by SharpeXB View Post
                              I’m sure about 90% of DCS gamers can’t start the aircraft or do anything besides fly it into the ground and gawk at the graphics or whatever.
                              If that's the way they want to play DCS that's their choice I guess. They purchased DCS modules the same as I did, and they are entitled to play DCS their way, just the same as we/I am entitled to play it my way.

                              From a personal perspective, I don't even know what the key binding is for Auto Start, never used it. That should say which side of the fence I am on, but that's just me. That's how I choose to play DCS, it's the realism and accuracy that keeps me coming back.

                              DCS also caters for all tastes too, you just need to look at FC3 aircraft. Personally I don't have any FC3 aircraft on my list, but again that's just me.

                              Horses for courses I guess.
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                                #35
                                Gladman......No way to look at it until you buy it.
                                Last edited 09-27-2020, 10:18 PM.
                                Buzz

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                                  #36
                                  Originally posted by BuzzU View Post
                                  No way to look at it until you buy it.
                                  If it is a paid campaign ask the developer in their forum section, I am sure they will be happy to answer questions.

                                  thanks


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                                    #37
                                    Kinda agree with the OP, just not with the conclusion because it most likely won't be practically possible.

                                    Here's a way:

                                    Paid missions/campaigns could have a requirement by ED to come with cold-start or both flavors, as part of the 3rd-party license.

                                    ED should make this easier by providing as part of the ME and mission system overhaul a new feature to support such flavors more easily by adding support for mission modifier system which would enable a Mission Designer to modify part of a mission without needing to create two separate missions.

                                    The User would select the modifier/flavor (cold or hot start, etc) before loading the mission (at mission planner screen makes sense, planner waypoints and imagery would change accordingly).

                                    ED would provide the Mission Designer-s (public info / docs) average estimated time of how long it takes to complete a cold-start procedure for all user pilotable aircraft. Perhaps even time estimates for Beginner, Average and Expert levels as well.

                                    DCS could further use these fixed estimations together with a new system that would calculate in real-time in ME how long would a parked cold-start aircraft in a particular airfield slot take time to start rolling down the runway, taking taxiing and traffic and other predictable factors into account, it's a bit complicated of a feature but it should be really helpful with that.

                                    Then the Mission Designer would be able to use these estimations however he pleases, perhaps put his own extra delay on top of that to make the mission easier for beginners in the beginning, or none.

                                    This whole thing may actually be one part of a new mission difficulty system, time crunch, among other things like ammo, fuel, AI difficulty, customizable separately, again using the mission modifier system without the User needing to edit the mission and without the Mission Designer needing to produce a separate mission file.

                                    For example you could as a User, customize, multiple difficulty settings (modifiers) that the Mission Designer has sprinkled into the mission, controlling whether you want hot or cold start, how much ammo will your buddy have at this or that point, how much enemies will attack you when enemy's reinforcements come, etc, the possibilities are endless.

                                    What a great opportunity really.
                                    Last edited 09-27-2020, 10:33 PM.
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                                      #38
                                      Originally posted by BIGNEWY View Post
                                      If it is a paid campaign ask the developer in their forum section, I am sure they will be happy to answer questions.
                                      It’s not just 3rd party campaigns succumbing to this simplified format.

                                      From the F/A-18C manual
                                      “ Cold Start
                                      There are two methods you can use to start a cold and dark Hornet. The first, and easiest, is the Auto- Start. By pressing [Left Win + Home], the aircraft will be started automatically for you. To cease the Auto-Start, you can press [Left Win + End].
                                      Being a DCS title though, the Hornet really shines when you take advantage of the detailed systems modeling, like manually starting the aircraft. ”

                                      And yet Eagle Dynamic’s own official campaign for the Hornet features it starting hot on the catapult every flight
                                      Last edited 09-27-2020, 10:52 PM.
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                                        #39
                                        Originally posted by BuzzU View Post
                                        Gladman......No way to look at it until you buy it.
                                        Youtube tells all.
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                                          #40
                                          Originally posted by izzyssm View Post
                                          If you don't like it don't use it.
                                          I hate FC3 modules on MP servers because they're to easy in my opinion so I avoid those servers...simple.

                                          This. Air Quakers on the MP servers are a scourge.
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