Vyrtuoz Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Yesterday, following a nice online engagement, I have been silently killed by an invisible weapon. I do not recall any RWR warning on that matter. The attached Tacview replay shows clearly it was an AIM-7 fired by a F-15C. Despite counter measures, the likely loss of the lock by the F-15C, followed by the death of the launcher F-15C. The AIM-7 flew strait to me for about 28 seconds without any possible guidance from the launcher aircraft. Looks like it turned "stealth" pitbull at some point... ;) I have attached an extract of the acmi file (to open in Tacview, not in a text editor). I can provide you with the trk file as well if necessary. Check the attached acmi file for the full engagement! Tacview-20201021-200830-DCS-AIM-7.zip.acmi.txt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirknir Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 In what some would describe as a pure self-less and heroic act, I turned back and sacrificed myself to save my teammate Vyrtuoz to avoid having to say to his wife and his 6 kids that he didn't come back from the front... All this for nothing because I didn't know the AIM7 was secretly a fox3 :mad: Mirknir My old server: The Thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Did you have ECM on? Because then the AIM-7 was guiding on those emissions in Home on Jam (HOJ) mode ;) 1 Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flappie Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Impressive! :smilewink: @QuiGon: You mean the AIM-7 can be autoguided in some cases? Don't accept indie game testing requests from friends in Discord. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundun92 Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Yep, the AIM-7s will guide on your jammer if you dont turn them off, and you will not get any RWR alert, as its passive Eagle Enthusiast, Fresco Fan. Patiently waiting for the F-15E. Clicky F-15C when? HP Z400 Workstation Intel Xeon W3680 (i7-980X) OC'd to 4.0 GHz, EVGA GTX 1060 6GB SSC Gaming, 24 GB DDR3 RAM, 500GB Crucial MX500 SSD. Thrustmaster T16000M FCS HOTAS, DIY opentrack head-tracking. I upload DCS videos here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0-7L3Z5nJ-QUX5M7Dh1pGg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flappie Posted October 22, 2020 Share Posted October 22, 2020 Thank you for the info. :) So, Vyrtuoz, was your jammer still on? Don't accept indie game testing requests from friends in Discord. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Impressive! :smilewink: [ATTACH=JSON]{"alt":"Click image for larger version Name:\tAIM7.gif Views:\t0 Size:\t32.8 KB ID:\t7114433","data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"7114433","data-size":"full","title":"AIM7.gif"}[/ATTACH] @QuiGon: You mean the AIM-7 can be autoguided in some cases? I wouldn't call it autoguided, as almost all our guided weapons are auto guided (except LGBs and the RB05), but yeah, it will home in on the jamming aircraft without any offboard support. :) The AIM-120 can do the same btw, just like the modern russian missiles ;) Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nighthawk2174 Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Oh no not this bug again, it seems to re-appear almost every other major patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flappie Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Oh no not this bug again, it seems to re-appear almost every other major patch.If you read the thread carefully, it might not be a bug at all, if the AIM-7 was fired in HOJ mode and if Vyrtuoz had his jammer on. Don't accept indie game testing requests from friends in Discord. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagobert666 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 "AIM-7s will guide on your jammer if you dont turn them off" Whoooot? Are you kidding me? I've never heard of this behavior. Are there any other FOX-1 type missiles that behave like this? And does that mean that CHAFF are useless as long as you have the ECM on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dundun92 Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 All but the Super 530 Eagle Enthusiast, Fresco Fan. Patiently waiting for the F-15E. Clicky F-15C when? HP Z400 Workstation Intel Xeon W3680 (i7-980X) OC'd to 4.0 GHz, EVGA GTX 1060 6GB SSC Gaming, 24 GB DDR3 RAM, 500GB Crucial MX500 SSD. Thrustmaster T16000M FCS HOTAS, DIY opentrack head-tracking. I upload DCS videos here https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0-7L3Z5nJ-QUX5M7Dh1pGg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tippis Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 "AIM-7s will guide on your jammer if you dont turn them off" Whoooot? Are you kidding me? I've never heard of this behavior. Are there any other FOX-1 type missiles that behave like this? And does that mean that CHAFF are useless as long as you have the ECM on? Old, but still relevant: ❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow KT Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 "Home on Jam" By the way... you shouldn't be able to notch an AIM-7 ;) 'Shadow' Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackPixxel Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 "By the way... you shouldn't be able to notch an AIM-7 What makes you think so? This is very wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 All but the Super 530 Not really. Many Fox 1 missiles do have HOJ capability, but there are more than just the Super 530 in DCS that don't have this capability. The R-3R is another Fox 1 missile for example that is not HOJ capable. Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow KT Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 By the way, not all variants of the AIM-7 can do HOJ. Wasn't it just the MH variant ? 'Shadow' Everybody gotta be offended and take it personally now-a-days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harker Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 (edited) I don't know if the missile in question actually guided via HOJ, but if it did, it should do so ̶i̶n̶ ̶p̶u̶r̶e̶ ̶p̶u̶r̶s̶u̶i̶t̶ ̶o̶n̶l̶y̶ with a sub-optimal trajectory, since it has no range, target heading and target speed info at all. If it guided like it had that info, then it's a bug. Edited October 26, 2020 by Harker The vCVW-17 is looking for Hornet and Tomcat pilots and RIOs. Join the vCVW-17 Discord. F/A-18C, F-15E, AV-8B, F-16C, JF-17, A-10C/CII, M-2000C, F-14, AH-64D, BS2, UH-1H, P-51D, Sptifire, FC3 - i9-13900K, 64GB @6400MHz RAM, 4090 Strix OC, Samsung 990 Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 By the way, not all variants of the AIM-7 can do HOJ. Wasn't it just the MH variant ? I'm not sure, but AFAIK all currently available Sparrow variants (F, M, MH) are HOJ capable. You're right though that older Sparrow variants (that are not available in DCS yet) don't have this capability. I don't know if the missile in question actually guided via HOJ, but if it did, it should do so in pure pursuit only, since it has no range, target heading and target speed info at all. If it guided like it had that info, then it's a bug. Good point, that's true indeed Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackPixxel Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 I don't know if the missile in question actually guided via HOJ, but if it did, it should do so in pure pursuit only, since it has no range, target heading and target speed info at all. If it guided like it had that info, then it's a bug. PN guidance does not need range information, all it needs is the seeker to track the angular coordinates of the target which the seeker does in HOJ. A heatseeking missile does not need range information either to do a proper tracking with lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuiGon Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 PN guidance does not need range information, all it needs is the seeker to track the angular coordinates of the target which the seeker does in HOJ. A heatseeking missile does not need range information either to do a proper tracking with lead. Makes sense :thumbup: Intel i7-12700K @ 8x5GHz+4x3.8GHz + 32 GB DDR5 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gavagai Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 Thank you for the info. :) So, Vyrtuoz, was your jammer still on? He's not coming back because he thinks his "bug" report was such a zinger. P-51D | Fw 190D-9 | Bf 109K-4 | Spitfire Mk IX | P-47D | WW2 assets pack | F-86 | Mig-15 | Mig-21 | Mirage 2000C | A-10C II | F-5E | F-16 | F/A-18 | Ka-50 | Combined Arms | FC3 | Nevada | Normandy | Straight of Hormuz | Syria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harker Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 PN guidance does not need range information, all it needs is the seeker to track the angular coordinates of the target which the seeker does in HOJ.. This sounds correct, I should remove the "pure pursuit" part. Still, an AIM-7 in HOJ mode will act similarly to how a HARM in Direct Attack (go directly to the emitter with no range info) mode will, as in it will rely on angular changes to attempt a shot profile and will adjust that shot profile on the go. An AIM-7 HOJ won't fly straight in, but its shot profile won't be the optimal one either, at least that's what I'm guessing. Comparing that shot with a similar one, without jamming, should shed some light on the issue. But that's a moot discussion, if we don't know whether the aircraft in question had its jammer on or not. The vCVW-17 is looking for Hornet and Tomcat pilots and RIOs. Join the vCVW-17 Discord. F/A-18C, F-15E, AV-8B, F-16C, JF-17, A-10C/CII, M-2000C, F-14, AH-64D, BS2, UH-1H, P-51D, Sptifire, FC3 - i9-13900K, 64GB @6400MHz RAM, 4090 Strix OC, Samsung 990 Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vyrtuoz Posted October 26, 2020 Author Share Posted October 26, 2020 Damit! You are right, my jammer was on, I did not think about the HOJ! I will be more careful about that next time. I am glad if this is not a bug, and learned something instead :) View from Tacview it looks like it was doing some kind of relaxed lead pursuit, which seems credible to me now I understand what was happening… I am not sure about the type of AIM-7, it is not specified in the data recording. I am going to ask Mirknir about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirknir Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 For more context, in the mission, the F15s are AIs and I gave them AIM7-M. I am not sure AIs even use HOJ feature but maybe... Mirknir My old server: The Thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flappie Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 I've just tested this with the same setup: F-15C with AIM-7M versus M-2000C F-15C gets destroyed right after launch "Will it home?" SPOILER: It seems the game mimics the AIM-7M HoJ feature very well. Don't accept indie game testing requests from friends in Discord. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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