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[NEED TRACKS] AMRAAMs - This can't be right?


Stearmandriver

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Flying the Hornet last night, I fired 5 120Cs, all within Rne, in STT, all with the steering dot centered. Each one went active and tracked... then missed at the very end.

 

5 in a row. C model 120s. I understand there's been concern about the 120 having previously been over-capable in DCS and that's certainly no fun, but... this current behavior is definitely not how the tactical pilots I know describe the real 120's performance. Is this still a WIP for the missile in general? Is it a Hornet-specific thing? Just really bad luck on my part in that fight?

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Like so many other questions in this area, I guess the answer is “depends”. Are you firing on a hot target 12 miles away?...or 30? You said RNE so I assume it’s fairly close. I always make sure to select “hi” when I’ve got one targeted as it helps avoid losing lock. Other than waiting until your within 15 miles and keeping a good lock, i don’t know what the issue is.

 

All I can say is that I continue to have good lock with aim-120Cs. Bs not AS much but likely around 50%. All seems ok for me but there are so many variables

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Did they do the famous avoidance manouver right at the end where they bounce off the target?

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Notch+chaff works really well against the 120C right now. Target only needs to notch for 1-2 seconds, too.

 

See the video in bugs\weapons section. It is an obvious bug.

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What range and alt approximately? And what target manuevers?

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Against AI or humans?

 

I've only tested them against AI F14s and Flankers. 10 shots in various settings. Only 2 Amraams missed... ran out of steam (launched at R aero from 40k).

 

I watched them in external view. They were dumping chaff and notching... looked good but didn't quite work out for them.

 

So... I wasn't too impressed with AI but those humans... I'm afraid to even try:(

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These were AI aircraft. Range was inside 10 miles-ish on them all; I was more focused on Rne than actual miles, sorry. Altitudes varied from 15k to around 5k. I really wish I'd saved the track, but I didn't. Didn't have Tacview logging turned on either.

 

Flew more last night and had more success, using the same tactics against MiG 29s and Flankers. Saw more hits than misses, anyway. So maybe I was just awfully unlucky the last time. It sure seemed anomalous... but my fault for not saving the track.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Did they do the famous avoidance manouver right at the end where they bounce off the target?

 

I've been seeing this behavior a LOT recently. Its particularly frustrating with the AIM-120B in MP

 

 

Here is a 5nm shot that somehow missed:

https://clips.twitch.tv/BigGentleSlothSaltBae

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I've been seeing this behavior a LOT recently. Its particularly frustrating with the AIM-120B in MP

 

 

Here is a 5nm shot that somehow missed:

https://clips.twitch.tv/BigGentleSlothSaltBae

 

Make sure to lead your shots. The way you fired it there, you made it have to make a massive turn. On top of you flying extremely slow and low. Instead of posting on forums, i recommend looking at tacviews and figuring out ways to get better positions for better missile shots.

 

These kinds of threads distract from actual feedback.


Edited by Max1mus
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Make sure to lead your shots. The way you fired it there, you made it have to make a massive turn. On top of you flying extremely slow and low. Instead of posting on forums, i recommend looking at tacviews and figuring out ways to get better positions for better missile shots.

 

These kinds of threads distract from actual feedback.

 

It definitely wasn't my best shot for sure, but I appreciate you bumping the thread again to help highlight the issue! Despite it being a rough shot, inside of 5nm, at .67 mach, especially at that altitude, it shouldn't have had much trouble reaching the target. In fact, you can see the TTG counts down to zero where it says "LOST." I'm currently downloading the tacview (as you suggested) to try and see what the missile did. My guess is it did the ol "turn away from the target on intercept" that many have seen the 120B do lately. Further, I've noticed that the missile tends to bleed speed like it has a drag chute once the rocket motor extinguishes. My guess is the CFD data hasn't been addressed in the -B like it was in the -C and we're trying to use an extremely draggy missile.

 

Thanks for the feedback Max! Your expertise is always appreciated!

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I've been seeing this behavior a LOT recently. Its particularly frustrating with the AIM-120B in MP

 

 

Here is a 5nm shot that somehow missed:

https://clips.twitch.tv/BigGentleSlothSaltBae

 

 

Hey Sport,

 

While I don't know whether there is actually some problems with the new guidance, the clip posted above is unfortunately not a great example to make. The parameters of this shot would be extremely challenging for a missile.

 

While this is "only" a 5 mile shot. You are firing at a target that is beaming you, meaning the missile will have to do some fierce turning to lead for a proper intercept trajectory. It also means your missile will be flying a pursuit on a cold target by the time it's halfway through the intercept. This is for all intents and purposes a cold-aspect shot with negative closure (target is significantly faster than you)

What's more, looking at the altitude and closure, your target is flying well in excess of mach 1.4 at 36,700 feet. While firing from a low-energy state of 0.65 mach at 11,500 feet. Your missile is at a huge kinetic disadvantage to overcome, all on a 4 second rocket booster.

 

Essentially you are requiring the missile to climb 24,000 feet (4 miles) straight up before chasing down a cold aspect target. Due to the angles and speeds involved, the effective length of your missile's flight path is going to exceed 10 miles. That is if it somehow manages to maintain >1.5 mach for the entire duration of flight. This is an almost impossible shot.

 

 

In this case it's more an issue that your instruments showed you false information, than there being a problem with the missile.

Frankly speaking, I think this is the case with a lot of these reports. Focusing purely on the Rne your avionics give you is a really poor way of estimating the shot Pk in DCS. As it is very often misleading or outright false.


Edited by Noctrach
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Yep the DCS DLZs are almost useless. Flanker's is the only one remotely useful

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  • 2 months later...
9 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

You mean this ? 
 

 

that missile was clearly notched, he was slow, in lookdown, chaffing, and passing through 3-9 line

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17 hours ago, Csgo GE oh yeah said:

You mean this ? 
 

 

Do you have the tacview file/ if you click on the drop down arrow to the right of the distance number between the primary and secondary objects (the boxes just below the tool bar at the top) there is an option to display closure rate between two objects.  You can use this to know for sure if it was notched.

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Even if the missile was notched, shouldn't it go for the last known intercept point, go for something else within the FOV, or go ballistic? It shouldn't be manoeuvring like that when notched should it? 


Edited by Northstar98

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