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    AMRAAM Chaff Bug

    The AMRAAM now has the same chaff bug that affects SARH missiles. If you chaff the missile while notching, it will NEVER reacquire, but rather will fly harmlessly, allowing you to recommit immediately. Here are some videos/tacviews of this happening:
    Notice in these videos how quickly I can recommit while still being in the missile FoV; this is because a chaffed AMRAAM will not reacquire



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    #2
    yep, the 120 despite having work completed to make it "more realistic", ED's own words, on the last patch it has been nerfed because it seems that on the Russian forums there has been an outcry that FC3 planes are having trouble with them and it seems if you speak Russian they are talking straight to the dev's, which have given in.

    So we are back to balancing their game systems rather than realism. Not good, utterly disappointing. ED need to stop doing this if they are to be credible.
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      #3
      That AMRAAM is not notched/chaffed... simple have no energy to kill you.


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        #4
        Originally posted by Hawkeye_UK View Post
        yep, the 120 despite having work completed to make it "more realistic", ED's own words, on the last patch it has been nerfed because it seems that on the Russian forums there has been an outcry that FC3 planes are having trouble with them and it seems if you speak Russian they are talking straight to the dev's, which have given in.

        So we are back to balancing their game systems rather than realism. Not good, utterly disappointing. ED need to stop doing this if they are to be credible.
        Im not quite sure what it has to do with FC3 but there you go lol

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          #5
          Originally posted by Hawkeye_UK View Post
          it seems if you speak Russian they are talking straight to the dev's
          Just wanted to say that IMHO you don't necessary have to speak Russian to talk straight to the devs. For example english-speaking guys from 100kiap/51pvo VFS (who fly exclusively REDFOR planes) provide their reasoning in english about missiles to the ED devs in the corresponding thread in russian part of the forum regularly (they also replied about the reason of this change here and in the AIM-120 thread in english part of the forum). If you have technically valid arguments / documents you can post it there and expect reply from the devs in english.
          Last edited 09-28-2020, 01:35 AM.
          Все написанное выше является моим оценочным суждением
          Everything written above reflects my personal opinion

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            #6
            Currently it seems the AMRAAM will commit to a chaff bundle and only reacquire when it flies through it (leading it them to do a hard turn back into the target) or the bundle disappears then from there it will grab another one or the plane if its still in the seeker FOV.



            Originally posted by Hawkeye_UK View Post
            yep, the 120 despite having work completed to make it "more realistic", ED's own words, on the last patch it has been nerfed because it seems that on the Russian forums there has been an outcry that FC3 planes are having trouble with them and it seems if you speak Russian they are talking straight to the dev's, which have given in.

            So we are back to balancing their game systems rather than realism. Not good, utterly disappointing. ED need to stop doing this if they are to be credible.

            Interesting conspiracy, I'd like to see you substantiate these claims.
            According to these ED Staff posts

            https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=9465
            https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=8027


            The change was an accidental result of chaining the CCM scale and was reverted this patch because they didn't see such high chaff rejection as the best option given how poor the EW modeling is in DCS at the moment.


            In short they rolled it back to what they, ED thinks is correct.



            Their words not mine.



            You are free to try and convince them as to what the notching / EW should look like. As it is indeed very underwhelming in general at the moment.

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              #7
              Originally posted by Falcon_S View Post
              That AMRAAM is not notched/chaffed... simple have no energy to kill you.
              No they didnt lol, the AMRAAMs in the vids had PLENTY of energy left. They simply wont reacquire. I saw the AMRAAM drop off the RWR immediately after the notch, if its the tacview you are referring to.
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                #8
                Originally posted by Coxy_99 View Post
                Im not quite sure what it has to do with FC3 but there you go lol
                Await next response from me - however yes people using FC3 aircraft complaining, mainly from the Russian forum's and understandably their favourite aircraft and how they cannot compete with 120s. I don't like the change as it makes it easier for me to notch missiles.
                Last edited 09-28-2020, 02:13 PM.
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                  #9
                  Originally posted by TaxDollarsAtWork View Post
                  Currently it seems the AMRAAM will commit to a chaff bundle and only reacquire when it flies through it (leading it them to do a hard turn back into the target) or the bundle disappears then from there it will grab another one or the plane if its still in the seeker FOV.






                  Interesting conspiracy, I'd like to see you substantiate these claims.
                  According to these ED Staff posts

                  https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=9465
                  https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=8027


                  The change was an accidental result of chaining the CCM scale and was reverted this patch because they didn't see such high chaff rejection as the best option given how poor the EW modeling is in DCS at the moment.


                  In short they rolled it back to what they, ED thinks is correct.



                  Their words not mine.



                  You are free to try and convince them as to what the notching / EW should look like. As it is indeed very underwhelming in general at the moment.
                  Ok Lets see, so if you think there have been no complaints on the forums direct to one of the main devs from FC3 players then have a review of the following;

                  https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=9430
                  https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=9400
                  https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=9405
                  https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=9406
                  https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=9421
                  https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=9432

                  So no conspiracy, maybe don't just read the English forums lol ;-)

                  Reality is the 120's are super easy to evade now, it wasn't exactly hard before to be honest as with the sam's but now, yea its super easy.
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                    #10
                    Originally posted by Hawkeye_UK View Post
                    Ok Lets see, so if you think there have been no complaints on the forums direct to one of the main devs from FC3 players then have a review of the following;

                    https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=9430
                    https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=9400
                    https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=9405
                    https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=9406
                    https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=9421
                    https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php...postcount=9432

                    So no conspiracy, maybe don't just read the English forums lol ;-)

                    Reality is the 120's are super easy to evade now, it wasn't exactly hard before to be honest as with the sam's but now, yea its super easy.

                    If you bothered to more than skim the post I sent you'd see they're not only from the Russian forum but that very same thread.
                    You're also a poor liar as I never said no one complained.


                    People complain in that thread and that forum quite often and nothing ever comes of it.
                    But you chose to ignore what the ED devs had said to fit your world view? In that case suit your self and enjoy your own private little dilusion.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by TaxDollarsAtWork View Post
                      If you bothered to more than skim the post I sent you'd see they're not only from the Russian forum but that very same thread.
                      You're also a poor liar as I never said no one complained.


                      People complain in that thread and that forum quite often and nothing ever comes of it.
                      But you chose to ignore what the ED devs had said to fit your world view? In that case suit your self and enjoy your own private little dilusion.
                      oh dear, ok so just to clarify you said my comments where conspiracy in nature, aka that there had been no complaints. You implied very strongly that my reference had no substitute in truth, that is not a lie that is something that has happened. That is not debatable but a matter of fact.

                      As for your other comments re delusional i'd like to refer you to 1.2 of the forum rules "Forum members must treat each other with respect and tolerance". One thing i would say is that perhaps you should have respect for people on here, as you never quite know that person's background or their real world experience.

                      It's a shame how the internet encourages some elements of society to say things that they would not dare say to someone's face and thus when posting anything that is a good rule to have. Wish you all the best and remember the forum rules.
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                        #12
                        So much pathos in this thread...

                        Thank you for the videos, which speak for themselves. Let's hope it is fixed soon.
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                          #13
                          Originally posted by Hawkeye_UK View Post
                          Await next response from me - however yes people using FC3 aircraft complaining, mainly from the Russian forum's and understandably their favourite aircraft and how they cannot compete with 120s. I don't like the change as it makes it easier for me to notch missiles.
                          As opposed to people complaining it is not effective enough, same vibe, alternate complaint.
                          I'm in the opposite end of the spectrum to you as I found it 'way too easy to kill' Russian aircraft in the previous patch, now it is downgraded to just 'easy to kill'.
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                            #14
                            I think 120 should be nurfed more just to make sure.

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                              #15
                              Why should it reacquire after selecting chaff? It should reject chaff and just keep the predicted intercept course if the target has notched, waiting for it to reappear in doppler shift, and if target reappeared with a tasty enough radial speed IN THE SEEKER FOV - reacquire - hence the memory mode and all that digital microprocessor stuff. But if it liked the chaff's radial speed and signature which by a coincidence of lots of factors it may - why should it drop the locked target it already considered valid? It should never do that because that would make attacks of groups impossible.
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                                #16
                                Originally posted by Кош View Post
                                Why should it reacquire after selecting chaff? It should reject chaff and just keep the predicted intercept course if the target has notched, waiting for it to reappear in doppler shift, and if target reappeared with a tasty enough radial speed IN THE SEEKER FOV - reacquire - hence the memory mode and all that digital microprocessor stuff. But if it liked the chaff's radial speed and signature which by a coincidence of lots of factors it may - why should it drop the locked target it already considered valid? It should never do that because that would make attacks of groups impossible.
                                Why would a missile lock on to a stationary chaff? Even if it locked on initially, its gonna drop below the doppler filter very quickly, and the missile is going to go back into search/memory mode, and reacquire you the instant you recommit. In all these cases I was in the seeker FoV when I recommitted. I know this because if you repeat this without chaff it reacquires as expected
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                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by dundun92 View Post
                                  Why would a missile lock on to a stationary chaff? Even if it locked on initially, its gonna drop below the doppler filter very quickly, and the missile is going to go back into search/memory mode, and reacquire you the instant you recommit. In all these cases I was in the seeker FoV when I recommitted. I know this because if you repeat this without chaff it reacquires as expected
                                  Nothing beats an ACMI file in such conversations....
                                  Now I see...
                                  - In DCS you've fallen victim of the fact DCS chaff uses copypasted flare logic. Untill its reworked we have to bear with it. It affects all ARH and SARH in the engine.
                                  - IRL chaff cloud still needs time to stop + it's very floaty and keeps in the air flying for long time.
                                  - IRL chaff is different based on it's physical properties and geometry. And based on that it may be nonexistent for the radar altogether. Or other way around, act like a brick wall - you can reject it's signature all the way but you can't see behind it. And all of that merrily changes with aspect. So I can understand why ED went with the "radar flare" approach - real chaff is so much harder to implement.
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                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Кош View Post
                                    Why should it reacquire after selecting chaff? It should reject chaff and just keep the predicted intercept course if the target has notched, waiting for it to reappear in doppler shift, and if target reappeared with a tasty enough radial speed IN THE SEEKER FOV - reacquire - hence the memory mode and all that digital microprocessor stuff. But if it liked the chaff's radial speed and signature which by a coincidence of lots of factors it may - why should it drop the locked target it already considered valid? It should never do that because that would make attacks of groups impossible.
                                    Watch the tacview in the first video again. The missile never selects chaff. It gets notched, and when he turns hot the missile wakes up and goes straight for the chaff that is far behind him. It is not logical because it is his turning hot that wakes up the missile, but instead it goes for his chaff which is still on his old notching-trajectory.

                                    The rhetoric and insulting going on (in another thread mostly) obscures the issue, but the behavior is obviously a bug.
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                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Кош View Post
                                      Nothing beats an ACMI file in such conversations....
                                      Now I see...
                                      - In DCS you've fallen victim of the fact DCS chaff uses copypasted flare logic. Untill its reworked we have to bear with it. It affects all ARH and SARH in the engine.
                                      - IRL chaff cloud still needs time to stop + it's very floaty and keeps in the air flying for long time.
                                      - IRL chaff is different based on it's physical properties and geometry. And based on that it may be nonexistent for the radar altogether. Or other way around, act like a brick wall - you can reject it's signature all the way but you can't see behind it. And all of that merrily changes with aspect. So I can understand why ED went with the "radar flare" approach - real chaff is so much harder to implement.

                                      I think your confusing "keeps in the air flying for long time" and having a doppler shift. Yes chaff stays airborne for a long time, but only for a very short time does it have a Vc above the doppler filter. Once the chaff drops below the Vc filter (again this happens very quickly, chaff is very light), the radar can filter it out as normal. Now if the plane is passing through the beam when dispensing chaff, and the chaff has a higher RCS, its very likely that it could, for that moment, switch to the chaff, and temporarily take the beam off the target. However as most sources make clear, the chaff will drop below the doppler filter very quickly, and the missile would go back into search/memory, and find you when you reaqcuire IF you are in the FoV, which would be true for the almost instant recommits you see me doing in the vid.

                                      Now IK that proper chaff modeling isnt quite so simple to emulate. But at least ED, for now, can tune things so the same net effect is produced: e.g, you cant expect to notch for 0.1 sec and recommit and not expect the missile to find you again. And this is for all the DCS RF missiles.
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                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Frostie View Post
                                        As opposed to people complaining it is not effective enough, same vibe, alternate complaint.
                                        I'm in the opposite end of the spectrum to you as I found it 'way too easy to kill' Russian aircraft in the previous patch, now it is downgraded to just 'easy to kill'.
                                        Yea rarely fly against FC3 aircraft in our pvp server re point and shoot. way to easy and my request to make them harder is born out of a desire not to have it easy. Rare to see the FC3 aircraft going up unless we have a new player etc, most migrate onto the JF17 re redfor
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