Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

How on earth do AI planes detect my Sidewinder launch?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #21
    Originally posted by BIGNEWY View Post
    AI will defend against missiles within 10nm or half the missile range.

    We do have to compromise in some places with AI so we don't have to require everyone to have a NASA super computer to play DCS.

    Thanks
    Many combat sims over the years have better AI defense reactions without requiring a NASA supercomputer, and the only reason DCS would require that is due to "innovation inflation" where we get so many performance-hitting visual upgrades and such to the game while it's still bound to a single CPU core while the GPU does hardly any work.
    YouTube Channel: "Clutch"

    Z390 Aorus Elite | i5-9600k @4.7Ghz | RTX2070 | 32GB DDR4 | Windows 10 | Odyssey Plus | Warthog HOTAS | 20cm Extension

    Comment


      #22
      Originally posted by captain_dalan View Post
      Or? Does that mean which ever is bigger of those two?
      And by missile range, you mean some fixed value or a value derived from the DLZ?
      Fixed value, whichever is bigger. Just observe how ridiculous AI reacts to Aim-54s.

      The AI has mostly the same routines as 15 years ago, when computers had fraction of power of today's machines. So the NASA computer excuse is pretty weak.

      Hardware: Virpil T-50CM, Hotas Warthog, Hotas Cougar, Slaw Rudder, Wheel Stand Pro, GVL224 Trio Throttle, Thrustmaster MFDs, Saitek Trim wheel, Trackir 5, Reverb

      Comment


        #23
        Originally posted by BIGNEWY View Post
        AI will defend against missiles within 10nm or half the missile range.

        We do have to compromise in some places with AI so we don't have to require everyone to have a NASA super computer to play DCS.

        Thanks
        Simulation is required for the AI to avoid processing unnecessary actions, but the problem is that DCS doesn't do that, it simply has the simplified system that is run constantly.

        In the old simulators, when there is no player watching/observing, then there are no 3D models, there is no checking LOS, there is no timers, scripts or anything performed. It is unnecessary and waste of precious processing time.

        It is very very simple dice rolling, a unit on map is nothing else than a table of features and capabilities, like a RPG game character stats card. Then when the another unit challenges (engage) the other unit, the check is made from the table against corresponding feature. Example "awareness" is done first. If no awareness is happening, no engagement. If unit is aware of the another unit, then spotting is required. When spotting happens, the unit with YES value starts first. Check is made for the range that can spotting unit engage the spotted unit. At this moment the spotted unit can still be unaware of the spotting unit.
        When the spotting unit performs a check is it in the range, it needs to make checking for propabilities for success as well is it acquired to engage. Unit can avoid engagement by hiding, or try to sneak around. If the unit mission is to get stealthy inside a castle, it avoids all the confrontation as possible. If the mission has a time limit, unit does check how much it can route or delay movement or engagement.
        The spotting unit is that does all the decisions as it is aware of something. The spotted unit can be unaware and minding own business, performing own task like "Patrol the waypoints A to B".

        If a unit decided to engage, it is in the range, then dice is rolled with the engagement. The unit can have a change to roll a check for attack every X turn, where a turn can be like a 5 seconds.
        If the unit to be engaged becomes aware of the engagement, it can roll a check against weapon can it counter it or not, or does it do something else like try to flee, dodge or something.

        The winner can be quickly and easily decided just with propabilities, like "In range, Solid Lock, Position Rear hemisphere, Target unaware = Kill".

        On the strategic map the engagement has happened in a milliseconds. The winner has been decided and simulation of engagement can be ended.
        Lost unit is removed from the map and player is not any wiser that what really happened.

        The critical component that DCS lacks is the actual simulation for checking. Every unit calls a checking X times a second that what units are in it's detection range. Every unit doing that constantly against all units.
        There is already the Green and Red state, but AI will know that enemy is behind the mountain and in range.
        So when the enemy pop-up behind the ridge, AI starts turning cannons immediately at it, if not already turned.

        In a such scenarios the only thing that should be added is that every unit receives a "radar". Just like a F-18 has radar beam modeled that sweeps sky etc, same needs to be on every single unit. In a MBT that is 3-4 such ones, driver, gunner, commander and loader. Each is given a scan zones and FOV periodic checking. Like driver sees only forward and scans narrow zone. Loader has own small zone to check sometimes if not searching.
        Gunner has very narrow but long range FOV and can rotate it around with turret.
        Commander has wider and so on....

        Unit is given a multiple levels of awareness and states. "Air Threat" is different from "long range combat". The various elements has different tasks and capabilities that change the unit performance and functions. Like if unit is not aware of air threat, no one is looking up in the sky. In close-combat mode where enemy infantry is near by and RPG risks exists etc, no one looks up in the air.

        A more complex modeling and simulation is done only when a player is watching the scene. Otherwise it is just simulated comparing a card tables and rolled dice and be done with it. Lots of checks does go "can't see" or "uncertain hit probability" and so on combat becomes more realistic as it can last long times.
        Add fear and moral factors and units would move in cover, retreat etc regardless their commands.

        Like no commander is going to command to drive their MBT over a hill if there is a MBT platoon waiting. An ambush is highest risk that is to be avoided. Instead the commander informs the situation and calls air support or try to find an alternative route.
        No matter how much is someone commanding "move there". No matter if they would need to move through that path to support own troops behind the ambush.

        This risk evaluation and checking is missing in DCS totally. The units will march to their deaths no matter what. A MBT platoon drives toward their death while enemy MBT platoon snipes them one by one in 1 km range. On the first hit the advancing MBT platoon leader would call retreat to cover when ambushed, as they have no idea who and from where took a shot. Find the enemy, analyze the positions and plan tactics etc.

        And one of the problems for this is that AI has no flexibility to maneuver away from the waypoint path. It is strictly denied from moving away from it and to change time of arrival.
        The AI lacks basic military tactics, like send a scout first ahead the main force . Form a proper formation to counter enemy formation strength by using its weakness.
        If enemy has a arrows, spread units to large open spaces formation.
        If enemy has a line defense, form a spearhead.
        If enemy has split positions, flank and engage only other from opposite side.

        Another problem in DCS is the exact units location. The fog of war is missing.
        The idea is that player knows all the time exactly where every single unit is and their status.
        That is not so in real military. All is based to assumptions and expectations.
        It becomes a dice rolling even in real world. 3:1 ratio for attack in forest, 6-9:1 to attack in urban. A unit is expected to able move X kilometres per hour on road, a build a A2 level defensive position in X hours. A MBT platoon is capable to perform it's attack duties with a 1 of 4 MBT disabled, if it becomes 2.5 of 4 that are combat ready then that MBT platoon doesn't anymore go anywhere before back to at least 3 of 4 status.
        2 men killed from 7 men squad renders them ineffective, a secondary reserve unit.
        In combat one commands unit to move from A to B and expects them to be at B in X hours or minutes. It doesn't matter where they are or what they do, only thing that matters is that they are time on target. Their last position was known and their expected position is known and time of arrival, and it is up to unit perform their expectations to complete that order. If status changes that they can't reach a position in time, they update their status to command.

        And that is major feature that is missing as dog of war and command structure allows to start simulating units quickly and effectively without wasting processing resources to run 3D modeling and all checking all the time.

        It is cheated in big scale, if a AI knows that on unit Alpha route from A to B has nowhere near enemy troops, then it is never required to start performing any checking for anything. It is just "Unit Alpha moving". On map there shouldn't be anything about unit exact position or status, just a command from Alpha to move to B from A with time table and commanded route. If a player wants to know where they really are, they need to get in that location to see it.

        And this is where a major problem does appear, a free camera. In a combat simulator there shouldn't be possible to have a free camera jumping capability to anywhere than what really has confirmed location.
        As if unit location is unknown, no one should be able jump there in free camera or see them in free camera.

        Such a expectation for that capability requires that everything is known all the time, that their rendering and all is done continually and it eats a lot of processing resources, that would otherwise be just "rollíng a dice".

        Many thinks that Falcon game series dynamic campaign is amazing, but they don't really know how simple it is and how well it is cheated all the time, that renders it laughable as DCS does a lot more as it doesn't cheat in clever manner like those other dynamic campaigns does.

        Simulation means that something is not done, it is just checked what would happen if expected things works as should.
        At some point it is required to have a uncertain randomness, that allows to simulate complex large scale scenarios as nothing is required to run with tiniest details, but it is done in large scale batch processing.

        A full combat can be executed and simulated in matter of second, then it is just playing the end result as a movie for the viewer. So while makers know what is going to happen, for the first time viewer the whole thing is beautiful experience, even when story end is well known.

        Problems appears if a viewer is given a change to intervene action middle of it. As on that moment simulated end game doesn't happen and it needs to be done again from that point with modified new board.

        There is no need for a NASA level computers when players gets cheated properly, by simply really simulating only the necessary.
        i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.
        i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

        Comment


          #24
          Originally posted by some1 View Post
          Fixed value, whichever is bigger. Just observe how ridiculous AI reacts to Aim-54s.

          The AI has mostly the same routines as 15 years ago, when computers had fraction of power of today's machines. So the NASA computer excuse is pretty weak.
          Yeah, i mean i did test just that a while ago.



          I was asking this because, while the AI may "actively" engage in defensive maneuvers at certain range from the missile, it starts dispensing CM immediately after being shot at.

          Wouldn't it be not all that complex. but much more authentic if the AI's counter measure response be tied to it's defensive maneuvers? Nothing Nobel Prize level, just simple IF branches:
          1. Fox 1 medium or long, AI dispenses CM when locked (for role playing reasons, even if they don't work like that in DCS) or when fired upon.
          2. Fox 3 medium or long, AI dispenses CM when missile goes active. Shouldn't be an issue, as the AI is completely aware of the missile and it's parameters at any given time.
          3. Fox 2 medium, the AI doesn't defend or dispense CM until within visual range for that missile and-or launch
          4. Fox 1, 2 and 3 short, AI defends in full measure right away.
          Current modules:
          FC3, Mirage 2000C, Harrier AV-8B NA, F-5, AJS-37 Viggen, F-14B, Combined Arms, F/A-18C, F-16C, MiG-19P, F-86, FW-190A, Spitfire Mk IX, UH-1 Huey, Su-25, P-51PD, Caucasus map, Nevada map, Persian Gulf map......ah yes, forgot the Super Carrier! Shows you how often i fly these days....

          Modules in waiting: F-14A, MiG-23, F-4U, F-8, Falklands Map


          Wish list: South East Asia map, F-4J/N, A-6, F-15A/C, Su-27, Sea Harrier FRS.1, Mirage III, MiG-17.

          Comment


            #25
            They have the fighter pilot instinct, or "gut feeling" that you need in this business.
            Supercarrier | Flaming Cliffs 3 | M-2000C | AJS-37 Viggen| MIG-21Bis | L-39 Albatros | Yak-52 | Spitfire LF MK IX | Mig-15Bis | Mig-19P Farmer | P-51D Mustang | F/A-18 | F-14 | F-5E Tiger II | C-101 Aviojet | I-16 | UH-1H Huey | Mil MI-8tv2 | Sa 342M Gazelle | Combined Arms | NS-430 Navigation System | NEVADA | Persian Gulf | Normandy1944 | World war II assets pack | Black Shark 2 | F-5E Agressors ACM campaign |F-5E Agressors BFM Campaign | L-39 Albatros Kursant Campaign | DCS:Syria

            Comment


              #26
              Originally posted by Thor_H View Post
              They have the fighter pilot instinct, or "gut feeling" that you need in this business.
              Have you noticed that if you do not have a IR missile (that you are carrying) selected to be aimed and launched, AI does not flare?

              But if you do have a IR missile selected, they start to take precautions and flare in a moment that they are vulnerable.
              This regardless that on the moment the IR missile is launched at them they start flaring and avoiding by maneuvering.

              The AI is limited, it knows what weapon you have selected and flies accordingly by that information. Not just by fired missiles at them.
              i7-8700k, 32GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 2x 2080S SLI 8GB, Oculus Rift S.
              i7-8700k, 16GB 2666Mhz DDR4, 1080Ti 11GB, 27" 4K, 65" HDR 4K.

              Comment


                #27
                Originally posted by Fri13 View Post
                Have you noticed that if you do not have a IR missile (that you are carrying) selected to be aimed and launched, AI does not flare?

                But if you do have a IR missile selected, they start to take precautions and flare in a moment that they are vulnerable.
                This regardless that on the moment the IR missile is launched at them they start flaring and avoiding by maneuvering.

                The AI is limited, it knows what weapon you have selected and flies accordingly by that information. Not just by fired missiles at them.

                I wonder if any of the ROE options in ME would remedy some of the ai shortcomings? Like if one sets it to "alert state" would they then maneouver and flare regardless of your loadout?
                Supercarrier | Flaming Cliffs 3 | M-2000C | AJS-37 Viggen| MIG-21Bis | L-39 Albatros | Yak-52 | Spitfire LF MK IX | Mig-15Bis | Mig-19P Farmer | P-51D Mustang | F/A-18 | F-14 | F-5E Tiger II | C-101 Aviojet | I-16 | UH-1H Huey | Mil MI-8tv2 | Sa 342M Gazelle | Combined Arms | NS-430 Navigation System | NEVADA | Persian Gulf | Normandy1944 | World war II assets pack | Black Shark 2 | F-5E Agressors ACM campaign |F-5E Agressors BFM Campaign | L-39 Albatros Kursant Campaign | DCS:Syria

                Comment

                Working...
                X