Night Lighting. Does ED even care?

[twistking]

Hello,

excuse the polemic title, but i'm a bit frustrated by the state of night lighting after taking a break from playing DCS for over a year.

It's not because there hasn't been any development on night lighting, it is because there has obviously been development on every aspect of night lighting, but the result is still a mixed bag and still not good enough for anything but nice screenshots. Will this ever get sorted out? It feels like there was no lead designer, or no agreed concept on how aircraft exterior lighting should be handled in the sim.

Since i started playing DCS in version 1.4, concepts of aircraft visibility have been bouncing back and forth between extremes, while at no points there was realistic rendering of aircraft exterior lighting. I honestly cannot understand how this can be that complicated. I was under the impression that a PBR pipeline like DCS uses since 2.0 makes dialing in light intensities relatively simple. What am i missing?

 

When i tested night lighting on the current stable version, i was very optimistic at first: The general look and feel of the terrain and sky under moonlight is improved, citylights and streetlights are brighter and the draw distance of city lights seems larger. Nice! Also taxilights and navlights of your own ac look good when viewed from close up (f.e. on the new A-10c module). Good so far!

 

Also there has been work done on how navigation lights and strobe lights are rendered which made me very happy, until i realized that they still completely fade out after a mile or so. Also every type of aircraft has their nav lights rendered completely differently. Some have a very bright glow (i appreciate the general direction, but -f.e.-on the f-18 it seems excessive), some have very dim lights. On all aircraft they stop being rendered way, way, way to early. Why is that? It's only sprites (for christ's sake)!

(For those that don't know about computer graphics: Sprites are basically free of charge concerning performance, since they do not really illuminate anything. They are - put simply - just a bright texture resembling a light and lightglow )

 

The biggest bummer for me was that all aircraft and all ground object are now glowing white dots at distance. WTF? Countless times i wished for some glowy reflections of sun- and moonlight on ac and ground units to help with spotting, but this is obviously not what i meant. It's white dots. It's white dots if the ac has nav lights on, it's white dots if the ac has nav lights off. It's white dots until you come closer, when ac is back to a dark nothing. Dark nothing if lights are on, dark nothing if lights are off. Come closer again and lights will be visible - but rendered differently for every module.

 

I feel like i have to write another wishlist thread on how ac ext lighting should be done, however i assume that this is all known. it just had to be put in the game. I cannot imagine that the engine or performance is the limiting factor. For ac ext lighting it's only sprites (they are basically free), for the general visibility it would be just some basics checks if ac is exposed to moonlight or not, checks for relative direction to moonlight and most importantly some testing to figure out a good balance between white dots and black dots. It honestly cannot be that difficult.

 

Ed, please fix!

Edited September 8, 2021 by twistking
forum update broke format

[Torri]

I agree with a lot of points here;

 

1. Lack of standardization for lighting across modules. (Internal and external)

2. White glowing dots for units at range.

3. Very excessive F-18 nav lights.

 

I would also add that on some modules the taxi light is way too strong.

 

The lighting update with 2.5.6 was very nice, but broke alot of lighting for modules.

Particulary Heatblur and older ED/FC3 modules.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say that ED "doesn't care."

But there are some issues that deserve attention.

[Northstar98]

I am generally inclined to agree.

• The SoH map gets its lighting perfectly IMO, they're just a lot better looking. And its better looking across the board; from airfield lights, to urban areas, full moons and reflections - it's all basically perfect. Other maps however still use the older (and IMO outdated system) with less diffuse fake orbs. In maps like the Caucasus, they're dimmer and smaller and maybe a teeny bit more diffuse. Syria is the worst offender here, with large, unconvincing and immersion killing giant orbs. I know that in 2.5.6.49798 stable, the Huey's position lights looked brilliant - basically perfect, but in the next patch they reverted to the FSX orbs. (Personally I hate big obnoxious orbs, they look very dated and very cartoony, it just takes the immersion away for me. But again, the SoH map and its lights is basically perfect for me, they look a lot more natural and definitely a lot less fake, without really compromising range - ED did a stellar job here, really awesome stuff - if only it could be applied to other maps).
  
• Some exterior lights are pretty good, I'd say the F-16 takes the crown with its position lights, but the Hornet is pretty awful - it reminds me of a meteorite and is very FSXy. Then onto landing lights (in general) which seem to be a bit inconsistent, I guess they are different lights, different intensities etc. In this case, I'd say that probably the MiG-29s have the best looking landing lights (on the actual lights themselves at least). Obviously some modules are still using older exterior lights (like other FC3 aircraft, the A-10C etc). I'd say that the F/A-18 and F-14B have perfectly decent landing lights, but the Viggen and the MiG-21bis and even the F-5E-3 are in need of an update.
  
• I find that HUDs are probably a little too bright, especially in daylight, I mean they've got a fair bit of bloom to them, whereas in IRL videos they don't seem as bright (especially warbirds), though of course this could be down to the camera.
  
• In daylight, internal lights are basically invisible, this is to be expected when in direct sunlight, but it's the same when it comes to areas in shadow, personally I think the 2.5.5 interior lights were better in my opinion, but I can't comment on what's realistic and what isn't.
  

I think it's important to note that its not so much about the brightness of the lights, but more how they render at longer distances. For instance I thought the old F/A-18C position lights were pretty decent in terms of brightness (okay, maybe a little brighter), the problem is they're invisible from a distance.

[twistking]

yes, i think all player and devs could easily agree on what effects would be desirable (of course there will always be endless discussion about perceived realism - but that is about the very details, not the general issues), i am just upset about the fact that all aspects of ac lighting have apparently been touched by an artist, but for some reason they are still a broken and uncoherent mess: feels like a waste of rescources. make it once and get it right!

 

to be fair - the terrain lighting and general atmospheric lighting is improved, like northstar points out and i want to add that even caucassus and nevada are clearly better than last year - so it's not just SoH that got improved, even if it takes the crown right now...

[BIGNEWY]

To answer your initial question in your title. Yes we do care.

 

you may have a different opinion and that is fine, but please don't assume we don't care.

 

To answer some points listed here

 

1. Lack of standardization for lighting across modules. (Internal and external) - Please report with examples and we can take a look.

2. White glowing dots for units at range. - Already reported, I will chase it up

3. Very excessive F-18 nav lights. - Already reported, I will chase it up.

 

Please remember if you have a specific bug to report it with examples, tracks / pictures / video and we will take a look.

 

thanks

 

 

[Torri]

Thanks BN :thumbup:

[twistking]

To answer your initial question in your title. Yes we do care.

 

you may have a different opinion and that is fine, but please don't assume we don't care.

 

As i have admitted, the title was more rhethoric than a serious question.

 

But me having a different opinion is a good point, because i think i don't. I also don't find these issues to be bugs in the narrow sense: Take the F-18 nav lights for example. My pesonal opinion is that they are a bit overdone, but then they are still better than what we had last year (where nav lights where barely visible at all), and if all modules had those bright orbs and they would show at all ranges, i would be "fine" with it. I'd post a wishlist item maybe to wish for less orby orbs, but that would be a precise wish and could result in a focused discussion.

 

For me it's difficult to understand what is the creative vision? What is intended, what is a bug, what is an engine limitation. I don't think that you or any of the devs would disagree with me on what would be desirable in general, so i don't know if my criticism is a bug report or a wishlist item - so it ends up as a little rant in the main forum ;)

 

If you take the upcoming damage model f.e., you and Nineline have written in the forum and in the newsletter what the ambitions are with it and the users know what to expect. If it comes out and aspects don't work well, it's easy to make a bug report, because you can compare the ambition with the result and point out problems easily. If one feels that it is not ambitious enough, one can make a wishlist item and so on.

 

So maybe there is some seriousness in my polemic question, because the vision is not clear at all. But it's good to know that you "do care".

I will eventually do a bug report on the issue of nav lights not showing at distance, but i feel that this is such an obvious issue, that i cannot imagine it going unnoticed by the devs for so many years... Maybe my main wish would simply be: Take a sincere look on aircraft visibility at night with nav/strobe lights on and off and improve the coherence and realism of the rendering of aircraft lights.

[Hawkeye_UK]

Posted back in March, the issue relates to moonlight. Cannot have any moon on night missions otherwise units show as white dots, nightmare for pvp servers as its like playing with labels. https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/englis...dots-no-labels

 

Track files already sent and BN confirmation of investing, what is the current status, notice it got bumped few weeks ago also?

[Ourorborus]

Clearly they do care or they wouldn't adjust the night lighting every patch.

 

I think hardware and individual perception seems to play a big and unacknowledged part here. Every time ED "fix" the lighting we get equal numbers of "thank you" posts and "you have ruined it" posts. (I personally find the daylight way too bright compared to the inside of my cockpit.)

 

Please ED, add some more user adjustable options for night lighting. Separate sliders for acft internal, aircraft external, ambient day lighting, ambient night, and ground objects would be fantastic.

[dorianR666]

Posted back in March, the issue relates to moonlight. Cannot have any moon on night missions otherwise units show as white dots, nightmare for pvp servers as its like playing with labels.

its a nightmare for singleplayer too. you instantly see every unit on the map, just by looking. simply put, gamebreaking - for more than half a year.

https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/englis...55#post6389255

 

how is this bug not critical priority, ED? its not just minor graphical glitch, it makes night mission impossible.

[Pikey]

This has been requested for some time now, the problem is always you guys were never supporting the report of these issues at the time. There are so many reports of lighting related issues, especially the dots that if we cannot create super threads of customer wishes together, we lose traction. This has been an issue since March and release of 2.5.6 with the dots. The other lighting stuff I will bump again though. It's all tied into object distance and display. I beleive that once the object goes out of display range, its associated light is lost and thus, no ambient light = weird compensation required for ambience.

[BIGNEWY]

This has been requested for some time now, the problem is always you guys were never supporting the report of these issues at the time. There are so many reports of lighting related issues, especially the dots that if we cannot create super threads of customer wishes together, we lose traction. This has been an issue since March and release of 2.5.6 with the dots. The other lighting stuff I will bump again though. It's all tied into object distance and display. I beleive that once the object goes out of display range, its associated light is lost and thus, no ambient light = weird compensation required for ambience.

 

Reality is everything takes time. The white dots have been fixed internally and we are testing, there is side effect to the fix also so we have address that before we can merge it. Hopefully we will see it in a patch soon

[twistking]

Reality is everything takes time. The white dots have been fixed internally and we are testing, there is side effect to the fix also so we have address that before we can merge it. Hopefully we will see it in a patch soon

 

Good to hear that.

But please, Bignewy, can you honestly answer, if it would be sensible for me to do report every other issue with aircraft lighting as it's own bug?

I would think that these are all known, as those issues are very, very apparent, if you actually fly the sim at night (on close-up screenshots many aircraft look fantastic already).

It may seem that way, but i honestly do not enjoy writing bug reports (you know that it takes quite a lot of time, if you double check everything in engine to make sure the report is correct).

Would it really help your team, if there was a bug filed for every aircraft? I think in reality a coder and artist would have to go through every (!) aircraft anyway (flyable AND AI) and quickly adjust the ext lighting values to make them coherent across all ac.

 

[BIGNEWY]

Honestly, if you think you have a bug post it, include a short track showing the issue and we will take a look. The trouble is everyone has different machines, different settings, and can have different results, sometimes it is not a bug, but a matter of personal opinion, either way we are happy to take look.

 

thanks